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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mail article about the letter attacking Kathleen Stock

53 replies

RoyalCorgi · 08/01/2021 12:41

Here:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9123083/Academics-slam-government-awarding-OBE-anti-trans-professor.html

OP posts:
Defaultname · 08/01/2021 19:58

@JustSpeculation

But technically... who the fuck knows any more?

I'm still finding the terminology all a bit "vessel with the pestle/ flagon with the dragon"...

But which is the brew that is true?

I don't know if I've ever used the word transwoman, since I think if it's got any meaning, it's the wrong one.
I suppose I could use it with inverted commas, but otherwise, it would feel like making an unacceptable concesion against reason.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 08/01/2021 20:20

Someone sent me an article about the Canadian cyclists and it described them as XY Females?! Apparently a court in Canada is using this term. Muddy muddy muddy waters.

The DM article seems to have been updated significantly from when I first looked at it and is now more clearly in favour of dr stock.

StrippedFridge · 08/01/2021 20:29

@HecatesCats

What is the clearest and most succinct definition? I think the public are confused and as PPs have pointed out this is useful to the trans lobby. I suspect if they wrote 'trans male' in the headline people would assume they were referring to ftm transmen. What is the most effective way of explaining who we are taking about?
Males who identify as being women.

Or

Females who identify as being men

I would leave the trans word out of headlines because it confuses the uninitiated. I would always have some explanation of what identify means too.

I think this would benefit most parties in the debate, including people who identify as trans, non-binary or another queer gender.

Defaultname · 08/01/2021 21:00

@ChakaDakotaRegina

Someone sent me an article about the Canadian cyclists and it described them as XY Females?! Apparently a court in Canada is using this term. Muddy muddy muddy waters.

The DM article seems to have been updated significantly from when I first looked at it and is now more clearly in favour of dr stock.

Speaking of Muddy Waters:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=

I'm a man
I spell mmm, aaa child, nnn
That represents man.

quixote9 · 09/01/2021 06:17

@RoyalCorgi:

"Yes, this is about free speech, but it's not just about free speech. It's not as if Kathleen Stock has some disturbing far right views that we reluctantly feel obliged to defend. She simply believes that biological sex is real and that women and girls have the right to single-sex spaces free from men."

Exactly! This needs to be trumpeted as loud and clear as possible.

She's not only free. She's right.

SpiderGwen · 09/01/2021 06:31

Loving all the Danny Kaye fans keeping track of where the pellet with the poison is.

The US is so backwards on trans rights and they assume the U.K. is the same. They have no context.

ArabellaScott · 09/01/2021 08:45

Clear terminology- I think I've described it as 'born males who ID as women'. I find 'trans identifying males' really confusing. In the end we have to make sure that sex = female/male and gender is where any 'trans' ideas are located.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/01/2021 09:51

Oh my word! Yes! They've definitely broken the chalice from the palace!

Brilliant!! Might make it into MN Lingo...

MedusasBrandyButter · 09/01/2021 10:34

I was pleased to see the Mail include this relevant point:

She added her Twitter reply that the group 'who've politically captured every major institution in the UK, including Unis - is currently running a campaign to support males who self-identify as women playing rugby thereby exposing fellow female players to potential neck-breaking and death.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1314626860085542912

We’re deeply disappointed in World Rugby’s decision to move ahead with proposals to stop most trans women playing in competitions they govern.

We stand in solidarity with those who will feel shut out from the sport they love.

This is the sort of context which keeps being missed out of much reporting on gender identity: what "transwomen are women" actually means in practical terms.

RozWatching · 09/01/2021 11:13

This is the sort of context which keeps being missed out of much reporting on gender identity: what "transwomen are women" actually means in practical terms.

Exactly. What is a TW? 'Identity' is unobservable, so in most practical situations - where sex matters - it boils down to 'man who says he is a woman'.

HecatesCats · 09/01/2021 11:14

@ArabellaScott

Clear terminology- I think I've described it as 'born males who ID as women'. I find 'trans identifying males' really confusing. In the end we have to make sure that sex = female/male and gender is where any 'trans' ideas are located.
Agree, clarity is needed.
ArabellaScott · 09/01/2021 11:45

Exactly. What is a TW? 'Identity' is unobservable, so in most practical situations - where sex matters - it boils down to 'man who says he is a woman'.

Yes, but transactivists have rendered it practically verboten to say this. It's considered 'violence' to 'misgender'. The blurring between 'sex' and 'gender' (or 'man' and 'male') means they can conflate correct sexing wth misgendering, and insist that speaking the simple clear truth is 'violent'.

It's nonsense of course - a 'transwoman' is by definition male. It's not impolite or transphobic or hateful to say this, it's merely stating neutral facts in clear language. And many, if not most, trans people are quite happy to acknowledge biological reality.

However, some people have made great use of general uncertainty, and fear of being unkind, or saying the wrong thing, to encourage 'no debate', because it suits their cause to not talk about the issues at all. (See also framing concerns or questions as 'problematic' or 'transphobic').

It's gone past that point now - we are having the debate, and in order to do so, we need clear terms. The clearest!

RozWatching · 09/01/2021 14:47

The media overall is still very naive in the way it covers the debate. They seem to automatically assign 'transgender' status to any and all men who want access to women's spaces and services.
Let's hope IPSO will see sense and drop the self id recommendations if and when they update their guidance.

highame · 09/01/2021 16:13

Perhaps IPSO could ask Stonewall for advice Grin

RozWatching · 09/01/2021 16:30

They did - the current guidance refers to Stonewall, Mermaids etc

NiceGerbil · 09/01/2021 17:53

In the letter saying not to give her the obe, they keep mentioning gender non conforming people.

This is a change in the narrative and a goalpost move.

The type of women who hold the 'wrong' views have generally been fighting against gender role (sex stereotypes) for years.

I think they have added in gender non conforming because

They feel they are losing ground 'just' talking about trans people/ trans youth
They are attempting to paint the opposition as those who want to enforce sex role- the USA right wing religion thing. Of course this is ludicrous, so I hope that gets noticed!

ClaireP20 · 09/01/2021 18:42

@HecatesCats

What is the clearest and most succinct definition? I think the public are confused and as PPs have pointed out this is useful to the trans lobby. I suspect if they wrote 'trans male' in the headline people would assume they were referring to ftm transmen. What is the most effective way of explaining who we are taking about?
This is a good point - the general public need to be made more aware, in layman's terms, about what is happening...we are sleepwalking into a crisis...more succinct language is needed xx
hedders · 09/01/2021 19:00

Yes, I‘ve noticed the switch to ‘gender-nonconforming’ too, a cunning move that works well in a sexist culture such as the US where women are judged heavily on their appearance. (Whitened teeth, fit body, blow-dried hair, make-up.)

ClaireP20 · 09/01/2021 19:04

I actually think that Kathleen Stock is a real hero. A wonderful woman who refuses to be silenced.

Bring on the hanging - this witch aint for burning....

RozWatching · 09/01/2021 19:20

Many people and organisations seem to be under the illusion that supporting gender identity ideology means supporting gender nonconforming people. See eg the horribly misguided statement from Barnardo's, NSPCC et al at the start of the Keira Bell judicial review.

mopphead · 09/01/2021 19:30

This whole signing the letter is just pathetic ichikawa trying to make women's rights all about him. Once again.

Imnobody4 · 11/01/2021 21:11

There has now been another letter in support of Kathleen. It's signed by some big names including Peter Singer and Cordelia Fine.

sites.google.com/view/open-letter-stock-freedom/home

Much academic research, including philosophy, engages with difficult and controversial subjects, and it is critical that this work be brought to bear on matters of real, imminent public concern. Sex-specific intimate spaces, athletics, medical services, and prisons have long been the norm in our societies and are represented in the very infrastructure in which we conduct our daily lives. Significant changes to these practices and norms are the kinds of things that our professional scholars must be able to discuss, without constant threat of public vilification.

It cannot become our standard that where analysis and discussion of matters of public concern may cause offense, the social and institutional consequences of engagement are so costly that few will be willing to do the work. It cannot become our standard that the mere allegation of harm caused by some writing or speech, in the absence of any specific evidence to that effect, is sufficient to trigger such consequences. And it cannot become our standard that the mere fact that someone who causes harm agrees with something said or written by an academic is sufficient to saddle that academic with responsibility for that harm.

The Open Letter Concerning Transphobia in Philosophy is the latest depressing example of an increasing inclination in the Academy to adopt precisely these kinds of standards. The effect can only be to discourage those whom we employ to research, think, write, and speak about these issues from doing so and to deprive students of a diverse and intellectually rigorous education. This will neither benefit our laws, regulations, and public policies nor improve the education that students receive.

TundraDweller · 11/01/2021 21:21

Wow! What a fantastic letter and so many good calibre academics and others on the signature list.

Dare we feel a ray of hope?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/01/2021 21:22

Great letter.

ScrapThatThen · 11/01/2021 21:29

'The Why Factor' on Radio 4 earlier covered the subject of 'Groupthink', and the experiments that show how easy it is to influence people to state the same answer or view, despite it being obviously wrong. It made a few things fall into place for me about how this has all happened - they also talked about how teams and leaders could encourage ideas plans and opinions to be shared in advance of meetings to avoid people conforming to the first person who speaks, to encourage diversity of ideas and real evaluation of ideas.