Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another news report calling a criminal a woman

45 replies

Clymene · 04/01/2021 14:17

Bloody Wales Online again.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/morgans-hotel-swansea-marina-nhs-19428838

This person is referred to as a woman. It is clear from the photo and from this line in the article: "However, the defendant was arrested the following day by officers investigating reports of a "tall, distinctive-looking man" connected to a series of break-ins at flats in Swansea's Maritime Quarter." that this person is not a woman.

Please report to IPSO.

OP posts:
PotholeParadies · 11/01/2021 20:27

I've tried to makes a timeline.

Gray committed three sexual offences at an unspecified point. No details given, but I think the quote from the defence lawyer implied it was against children. Gray is convicted of the offences in 2005.

A year after committing the offences, Gray starts living as a woman. Unclear whether this was before the first trial or afterwards, but given how long it takes cases to go to court, I'm thinking before.

At some point Gray is in a relationship with the victim, a man. Man leaves and initiates a relationship with a woman.

2018: There's a certain amount of extrapolation here, but the facts in the article are that Gray posed as the victim online and arranged to meet someone who was posing as a 14-year-old. Gray supplied the victim's address in the conversation and then never turned up to the agreed meeting point. Between that and the quotes from the police interview with Gray, it seems clear that Gray knew that they weren't speaking to a true 14 year old and it was actually someone acting for a vigilante group.

NecessaryScene1 · 12/01/2021 06:35

So "confusion with their gender identity" prompts males to commit offences?

If any courts were foolish enough to actually permit that as a defence or mitigating factor, then that's a very clear legal precedent to refer to as to why such males should not be permitted in women's spaces - sexual urges so out of control that they can't be held responsible for their actions. Thus evidently more of a risk than other males, who are held responsible.

And a male wanting to be in a women's space is clear evidence of "confusion of gender identity". They basically make our case for us - any male wanting in is exactly the sort of male that has to be kept out.

Molesmokes · 12/01/2021 07:56

@NecessaryScene1

So "confusion with their gender identity" prompts males to commit offences?

If any courts were foolish enough to actually permit that as a defence or mitigating factor, then that's a very clear legal precedent to refer to as to why such males should not be permitted in women's spaces - sexual urges so out of control that they can't be held responsible for their actions. Thus evidently more of a risk than other males, who are held responsible.

And a male wanting to be in a women's space is clear evidence of "confusion of gender identity". They basically make our case for us - any male wanting in is exactly the sort of male that has to be kept out.

Good point. This defence is presented with sickening regularity and is sometimes accepted.

Since “confusion about gender identity” can be caused by psychosis it would surely be appropriate for such a defence to prompt referral for psychological reports prior to sentencing?

The Government cannot claim it was never warned:

Written evidence submitted by British Psychological Society to the Transgender Equality Inquiry

20 August 2015

Extract

Conversely, psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:

•	As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;

•	As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);

•	Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female).

•	In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19471.html

Archived: archive.is/6O8uL

=====

Written evidence submitted by British Association of Gender Identity Specialists to the Transgender Equality Inquiry

20 August 2015

Extracts

“We would not describe transphobia as very widespread; on the other hand, its very presence is saddening and regrettable. On the whole, in our experience, non-fiction broadcast radio and televisual representations have varied between moderately poor and moderately good whilst print journalism has been moderately poor at best. There appears to be a persisting inability to distinguish between homosexuality, people who cross dress for any one of a large number of reasons including fetishistic and people for whom gender is the core issue. This difficulty in distinguishing one thing from another seems most marked in print journalism and low-end television.”

“The criminal justice system merits quite a bit of thinking about. On the one hand, many of us can remember patients who were charged with crimes, convicted and who ended up on the sex offenders register when we thought that the same thing wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t a trans person. A good example would be the transwoman charged with sexual assault after some brief fellatio with two males who were two and three years younger than her own age at the time (she was eighteen). They were visitors to the area and boasted to their cousin of their recent sexual encounter. The cousin, enlightening them as to the nature of the person they had had a sexual encounter with, caused them to feel embarrassed. One thing led to another and the patient was charged with sexual assault. Given that she was in a kneeling position at the time and that it would have been perfectly possible for either one of the males concerned to run away this seemed a bit implausible. In the end, she was convicted of being reckless as regard to age. This does place her on the sex offenders register, though. One suspects that she would never have been charged at all if she had been a born female.

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek topretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.”

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.html

Archived: archive.is/YVjWx

ArabellaScott · 12/01/2021 10:06

@NecessaryScene1

So "confusion with their gender identity" prompts males to commit offences?

If any courts were foolish enough to actually permit that as a defence or mitigating factor, then that's a very clear legal precedent to refer to as to why such males should not be permitted in women's spaces - sexual urges so out of control that they can't be held responsible for their actions. Thus evidently more of a risk than other males, who are held responsible.

And a male wanting to be in a women's space is clear evidence of "confusion of gender identity". They basically make our case for us - any male wanting in is exactly the sort of male that has to be kept out.

I believe it's been used several times as a defense. Either the 'pressures of transitioning' or the pressures of gender dysphoria, or I think once the artificial hormones have all been used (successfully) as explanations for why males have committed various offences.

Also the suggestion that a transwoman would struggle in a male prison has been used to enable offenders to avoid custodial sentences.

It could well be that some people are aware of these reasons being useful ways to get a lighter sentence or avoid jail. Which would suggest males are using them under false pretences.

Or is it really possible that males with confusion about their gender identity are at greater risk of offending? Someone somewhere will be keepng tabs on all of this, I'm sure?

Molesmokes · 12/01/2021 10:34

Or is it really possible that males with confusion about their gender identity are at greater risk of offending? Someone somewhere will be keepng tabs on all of this, I'm sure?

The prison stats very much suggest that this is the case as far as sexual offences are concerned:

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

NecessaryScene1 · 12/01/2021 10:35

Well, for my point, it doesn't really matter whether the people invoking the defence are "true trans" or not, or even if it's statistically true, if the legal system is accepting it as true.

I'd expect lawyers to attempt anything they think could work for their individual client.

But for the group, it's shooting themselves in the foot if it becomes an accepted legal view that males with gender issues can't be held responsible for their acts towards women.

That's something that can be put in an evidence bundle - in X cases English judges have accepted that males were unable to fully control themselves around women due to their gender confusion.

(Actually figuring out statistical truth would mean pinning down some definitions about "trans" and figuring out the "true" bit. Personally I don't think you could ever prove "trans" males are more of a risk than other males any more than you could prove they were less. It is possible to show they are more of a risk than females, but only because the male/female difference gap is so huge to start with.)

Molesmokes · 12/01/2021 10:45

But for the group, it's shooting themselves in the foot if it becomes an accepted legal view that males with gender issues can't be held responsible for their acts towards women.

I don’t think anyone missed your point and it is very valid.

You are right that the dots are not being joined up, or perhaps they are and it just suits trans advocacy groups not to call out the apparently persistent transphobia of lawyers using this defence and of judges accepting it.

Molesmokes · 12/01/2021 10:48

Ps. Look at all the prison stats for males vs “trans identified males”, who would seem to be over-represented in convictions for sex crimes:

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

NecessaryScene1 · 12/01/2021 10:51

I'm not sure why judges would be accepting the defence, mind. Are there expert witnesses being brought in? Is this the result of some (strategically inept) Stonewall/GIRES training?

Or just some general sympathy thing?

(I heard someone advance the interesting hypothesis the other day that trans people might be activating some sort of protectiveness instinct, as by not being definitely male or female they become effectively viewed as a child. Intriguing - might possibly go some way to explain the boundless tolerance for bad behaviour from some quarters? We see these people as adults, but we're seen as mean by the people who see them as children).

Molesmokes · 12/01/2021 11:17

Posts tagged No Jail

transcrimeuk.com/tag/no-jail/

Eg.

Marcus Smith/Adam Hodgson/ Layla/Leila Le Fey, a violent male who identifies as a transgender woman, was convicted of assault and possession of an offensive weapon at Lewes Crown Court in February 2020.

Le Fey, 40, attempted to steal wine from a convenience store in Brighton while intoxicated at 4am and, when challenged, threatened the store manager with a claw hammer – behaviour that the judge described as inexcusable and terrifying.

However, an hour after jailing Le Fey for six months, the judge u-turned and suspended the sentence as lawyers argued that, having failing to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, Le Fey would be sent to a men’s prison and allegedly kept in solitary confinement. Le Fey claimed to have completed gender reassignment, though court staff were unsurprisingly unwilling to verify this claim.

Judge Stephen Mooney said “Having reflected again upon the impact an immediate custodial sentence would have, the difficulties there are and the intractable problems the prison service would face, I have reconsidered whether imprisonment must be immediate.” He also ordered Le Fey to complete 30 rehabilitation sessions.

Le Fey has previously been convicted of over 50 offences dating back to 2005 including three convictions for brandishing a bladed article in public and described as a ‘sheer relentless pattern of offending’.

======

Not all of them have as much detail on the site and you have to click through to the sources to see exactly why violent sex offenders were spared jail because they were trans.

There definitely seems to be some sort of bizarre infantilisation going on sometimes.

WeeBisom · 12/01/2021 12:54

On the topic of using gender dysphoria as an excuse to commit crimes, I remember that fellow in Australia who attacked three people with an axe claimed that it was done partly out of despair at his gender woes and also partly because a woman had just rejected him on a dating app for being trans. Interestingly when he went to the court of appeal with this excuse they were not impressed at all, and they actually increased his sentence.

ArabellaScott · 12/01/2021 13:49

Thanks, Molesmokes, tags on those articles is helpful.

Lawyers seem to be suggesting, and judges agreeing, that gender identity issues are involved in offending, causing offending, or increasing the risk of offending, as do artificial hormones.

Yet we are told repeatedly that transwomen present no risk at all, ever, to any women anywhere. And any women that suggest there might be a risk of a transwoman being an offender is told they are being transphobic.

Confusing.

WinterIsGone · 12/01/2021 14:24

Have to confess, I was reading the Mail over lunch. The story's there, headlined: Scorned woman is jailed for five years for framing her ex-boyfriend and his new lover as paedophiles by taking over his Facebook to arrange meet with '14-year-old girl'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9137815/Scorned-woman-jailed-five-years-framing-ex-boyfriend-new-lover-paedophiles.html

It's only at the end it says: "Gray has three previous convictions of sexual assault in 2005 when she was living as a man. She transitioned into a woman a year later. Amber Hobson, mitigating, said Gray would struggle in prison as a transgender woman."

InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud · 12/01/2021 15:42

@WinterIsGone

Have to confess, I was reading the Mail over lunch. The story's there, headlined: Scorned woman is jailed for five years for framing her ex-boyfriend and his new lover as paedophiles by taking over his Facebook to arrange meet with '14-year-old girl' www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9137815/Scorned-woman-jailed-five-years-framing-ex-boyfriend-new-lover-paedophiles.html

It's only at the end it says: "Gray has three previous convictions of sexual assault in 2005 when she was living as a man. She transitioned into a woman a year later. Amber Hobson, mitigating, said Gray would struggle in prison as a transgender woman."

And looking at the comments not many have cottoned on this is a transwoman....
CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/01/2021 16:09

I'm on my phone and that tends to load comments with my real name... but I really want to shout at a few of those misogynistic comments.

PotholeParadies · 12/01/2021 17:22

I want to scream at the comments about how this proves men are hard done by.

334bu · 16/01/2021 12:21

www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/amp/cambridgeshire-rapist-jailed-for-15-years-after-attack-that-left-victim-with-recurring-nightmares-9148559/?__twitter_impression=true

Refreshing to see a newspaper correctly identifying an offender as a transwomen who has undergone no surgery.

MoleSmokes · 16/01/2021 12:54

334bu - blimey!! Honest reporting!!! That makes a change.

”Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year.”

I hope the poor woman was not forced to refer to her rapist as “she”.

334bu · 20/01/2021 23:28

www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/denen-anderson-dundee-court/amp/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&__twitter_impression=true

Court records list this person as Denen Steven Anderson.

Dawnlassie · 20/01/2021 23:34

I think for the avoidance of doubt news stories need to state either

"The culprit was born with tits and vag"
or
"The culprit was born with a trouser sausage"

Avoid all doubt.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.