classical music

[redcandlelight]

can we talk about women & cassical music?

watching the vienna new year's concert.

• not a single piece of music from a female composer
• only a handful of female musicians
• the ballet inserts where a troupe of women 'chase' one man (eurgh)

it makes me want to not like classical music at all tbh.

I know that vienna/austria is a special place wrt classical music being male dominated, but it's not much better anywhere else.

It may get better now blind auditions are becoming more usual for musicians - there really was significant bias,

And Jane Glover became a Dame in the New Years honours this year, so that's one bit of good news.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Glover

blind audition are one thing (and not fail safe)

last female composer I heard in concert was Thea Musgrave (horn concerto, beautiful!).
there are many more female composers, but they are hardly ever played in concert halls.

The New Years Day concert is usually a very specific traditional programme so I don’t think the fact that works by women aren’t played is all that important (in this context). It’s mainly Strauss isn’t it?

I agree on the female musicians though.

I can see a few women and there were a fair few in the interval segments too.

It's true that Western Art music is generally dominated by men though. I think there's a few reasons for that.

Eg

To be successful you have to have tip top almost superhuman technical skill of the kind you only get when you can work on it intensively every day. If you have any other responsibilities you won't be able to do that and will be overtaken.

The international travel required also rules out anyone with caring responsibilities.

Favoured musical styles change and come around in cycles with different requirements for each. We're now tailing out of a long period starting in the 70s where bravura performances ie physically demanding for everyone but more so on the female body were the thing, whereas previously in the 20s through to 60s lyricism was more valued. The bravura style is more punishing especially for women who have had children as it puts strain on backs, muscles and ligaments already loosened/weakened by pregnancy and childbirth.

The show stopping pieces from the great flowering of this rather specifically narrow Western art form were all produced under a system of noble patronage that women just weren't a creative part of, in general. They were quite often patrons in their own right ie doling money out to your Beethovens etc but they weren't creators because feudal patriarchy. After a couple of centuries of this a canon was established. It's hard to break into a canon.

Those are my first thoughts anyway.

And yes agree with a pp that the NY concert has a specific narrow remit.

I started the same thread on this last year! Apparently the Vienna orchestra are well known for not having female representation.

I watched the Halle over Xmas and that was much more even, so it is better in some areas.

I was watching this too. I specifically looked for female musicians when the orchestra was first shown on screen, there were a few. I didn't watch all the interval as I was doing a jigsaw puzzle but when I looked up there was a group of people in 'peasant style' dress, one of which was a teenage girl. I noticed she had her leg bent up and her skirt falling away, no doubt arranged by the photographer in the name of 'art'.

Another point about the bravura style is that it's not just a man's game but also a young man's game. So older men are excluded from it too.

Eg if you listen to recordings from the early part of last century by people considered "greats", they wouldn't have gotten anywhere now because it's not fast enough, not loud enough and, to be frank, they play too many wrong notes for contemporary ears.

So for a fair few decades now this type of music has been the preserve of fit young men who can keep the pace up.

There are exceptions ofc: at the very top you have the old maestros who people will always pay to see even though they play fistfuls of wrong notes every night but they've built up a following from a lifetime on the international circuit. But the ones even on the rung below have a shorter shelf life.

Anyway any NY morning that includes the blue Danube is fine by me, but especially after the last bloody year we've had. Come on, this is lovely.

As noted upthread Vienna is especially bad for women musicians - I think they've reluctantly reached as far as about 1970, rest of the world terms.

I can recommend radio 3. Lots of current day women composers, have done loads to rediscover and re-popularise forgotten women composers of the past. Plus very insightful women presenters and interviewees (musicians and composers). Including some often overlooked areas of music "Sounds of Gaming" is fronted by a woman, IIRC.

Yes radio 3 is fab. I'd recommend listening to it anyway, just for sanity purposes (it's certainly kept me sane during lockdown) but also it's very egalitarian in general and women are not seen as tokenistic novelties.

I would point out though that these guys we're watching here aren't talentless arseholes who've only got to where they are due to being male: I mean, they're all actually very good at what they do.

We just need to hear a bit more about women who are also good at what they do.

We visited Salzburg three years ago and went to a solo clavichord concert featuring Mozart's works, performed by a Russian woman. It was superb. When we have gone to chamber orchestra concerts, there seems to be a good balance of women and men playing.
Austria is a powerhouse for male composers - Strauss, Haydn, Schubert, Mozart etc., so that is why they are featured so much.
Just found this by Clara Schumann - Piano Concerto Opus 7

As noted upthread Vienna is especially bad for women musicians - I think they've reluctantly reached as far as about 1970, rest of the world terms.

There's always Andre Rieu and his orchestra for balance. ;)

And totally agree about Radio 3. It's my go to station these days.

Including some often overlooked areas of music "Sounds of Gaming" is fronted by a woman, IIRC

I love sound of gaming and I'm not a gamer. I love Saturday afternoon anyway, also the world music show. The fabulous Jess Gillam at noon on Saturdays has introduced me to more new (to me) music than anybody else.

Love Radio 3. I started listening to the Composer of the Week podcast only this year though as it has been mostly dedicated to Beethoven, it will be interesting to see how many female musicians feature now normal order will be resumed.

This is only tangentially related, but here's a phenomenal woman pianist recovering from the sort of thing that happens to many of us in nightmares.

(I love Radio 3 too.)

Trying again ...

OMG!! That is like all of your twenty year residual nightmares about sitting an exam you haven't revised for rolled into one, in front of a live audience. Bloody hell.

Here's another amazing woman. Martha Argerich, making her triumphant return to the Proms after babies, divorces and breast cancer back in 2000. Following all of that it would be remarkable enough for her just to be sitting upright but she did way more than that: she delivered a thrilling, incandescent performance that totally presented that concerto in a new way and in the years that followed she set up her own personal festival in Switzerland (as you do) while continuing with an international performing schedule. Still going strong now 21 years later.

I'd rather watch them play than this dancing

And I usually quite like dancing, not sure why I don't like it

The two women after one man bit they both looked terrifying! I said to DD IRL he would have run away

thanks for the listening tips!

I agree that there are many amazing women around, just not enough (yet)

Alison Balsom's gabriel was spectacular

There are a lot of very good women in music today but it is harder for them than for the men due to caring responsibilities/career breaks for babies etc. They also don't apply for posts until they are very well qualified whilst men will have a go even if they aren't really ready.

There were also quite a lot of good female musicians in the past but one problem was that it was not seen as a "proper" career for young ladies - eg opera singers were often seen as little better than courtesans.

The Baroque period was full of female composers too but they didn't get the fame of their male counterparts because they were less able to travel to seek patronage. Also, composers and musicians weren't that well remunerated and often had to double up their roles which again made it difficult. I found a wonderful picture though from the French Court of a woman conducting a group of men from the harpsichord which I suspect is Marie Couperin who was master of the Kings Music at one point.

If you want a good all female music fest then Isata Kane Mason (Sheku's sister) has brought out a lovely CD of Clara Schumann's piano works. In fact Isata is a case in point as she is probably better than her brother but was robbed of the Young Musician piano final prize in favour of a male pianist who was nothing like as good musically or technically - male bias at it's worst.

The Vienna Philharmonic is notoriously sexist. They only appointed their first female musician in 2003! www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/10/gender.arts

I used to work in classical music (I was made redundant due to Covid!) and the orchestra I worked for was trying to address the gender imbalance by programming more works by women, female conductors and soloists etc. Lots of arts organisations will have to prove that they’re addressing this to get their arts council funding. There is still a long way to go though.

I recommend Symphony No.3 by Louise Farrenc. She was a really inspirational woman and even back in the 1800s she fought for equal pay with her male counterparts (and won!)