I am an elderly man. I cannot understand transgender ideology ...

[9toenails]

... I think this is because it is incomprehensible. It is not possible to understand something that does not make sense.

Given what 'transwoman' means, 'transwomen are women' is analytically false (sc. logically contradictory) if 'women' means 'women', and plainly nonsensical if 'women' is taken to mean something other than 'women'.

Confused about what 'women' means? Well, think of your mother; she was certainly a woman. The mother of my children, she is a woman, as is the mother of any human child; likewise my grown-up daughters. All of them, women. Knowledge of the meaning of such a common word as 'women' is not, as they say, rocket science, at least for a native English speaker.

Do transgender ideologues themselves understand their own claims? No, they do not, at least if they sincerely try to assert 'transwomen are women'. 'Transwomen are women' just cannot be true. At best it can be analytically false; more likely it makes no sense.

I know many such ideologues are very young. Still, though, it strains credulity to think they have no inkling of their own lack of understanding. Why, then, do they keep up their nonsense rather than trying to learn? It would seem we are forced to consider more-or-less nefarious motives. Such as ... ?

Can anyone help me out here?

Is that you, John Cleese!??

Of course, in trying to explain your viewpoint you will get all sorts of very trendy and knowledgeable people telling you you are a bigot, check your privilege and go get an education, okay Boomer!! Bet you voted Brexit, put down the Daily mail etc....

They will tell you you're wrong, ridicule you, try to scare you, tell you times have changed, clownfish etc....

But they won't have any actual substantial arguments, facts, statistics or logic.

Baffles me.... But what do I know, I am just a Karen and should die in a grease fire, apparently....

I am a not so elderly man. I understand the ideology. Understanding does not mean agreeing with it. I want women to be able to use changing rooms and have medical examinations without fear, and women's competitive sport to be fair competition. I also want the differing medical and mental health outcomes and concerns of those who have transgender reassignment surgery from those who never transgender to be recognised.

Try this thread, OP:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4117149-Im-a-young-feminist-I-cannot-understand-your-Gender-Critical-positions

It will illustrate the lack of intellectual rigour of the pro-trans ideologists and provide you will much of the statistical and research material you will need to argue a gender critical corner.

"Trans women are women" is itself transphobic gobbledygook.

It removes a protected characteristic, namely that of being trans, wrongly and confusingly, denying a minority right to their own minority status.

It also suggests to young people that we as a species can easily, without medical consequences and with no pushback from society flip our sex. We can't.

I call it out whenever I hear it.

The closest I have got to understanding is this...

There is a feeling in the head about whether one is a man or a woman. This feeling may be at odds with the actual sexed body, the feeling may only be at odds on a Tuesday for example. Or it may come at a very convenient time from a cynics perspective.

But always, always, always this feeling trumps the physical body. This feeling trumps the sexed body. Specially if it is a man who feels they are a woman.

And of course some fish can change sex therefore humans can too.

The third thing I think is that this belief takes place in the part of the brain where religion also lives. We, as humans, need to have a belief... in God, in democracy, in the justice system... in transgender ideology. When you think about it, each is as illogical as the next.

Yawn.

It's easy, you just have to redefine what a woman is:

"According to Butler's theory, gender is essentially a performative repetition of acts associated with male or female. Currently, the actions appropriate for men and women have been transmitted to reproduce a social atmosphere that both maintains and legitimizes a seemingly natural gender binary.[22] Consistently with Butler's acceptance of the body as a historical idea, Performative Acts suggests that our concept of gender is seen as natural or innate because the body "becomes its gender through a series of acts which are renewed, revised, and consolidated through time".[22]

Trying not to strawman... trying not to strawman... failed- all I can see from this is that being a woman has something to do with being dainty and submissive and nurturing? Anyone able to steelman the argument/definition?

But always, always, always this feeling trumps the physical body. This feeling trumps the sexed body. Specially if it is a man who feels they are a woman

However this only applies to feelings about what sex you are. Feelings about your ethnicity , age, occupation or qualifications are not valid apparently.

So I’m not allowed to identify as a 70 year old and claim my state pension. Or as an airline pilot and fly a passenger plane.

Even though I have dressed as a 70 year old for 20 years / lived as a pilot for even longer and always write “ pilot “ as my occupation on forms.

I have no idea why no one considers these identities as just as valid.

Mumof.. what is the meaning of ''strawman'' and ''steelman'' (in this context)? I think the English language is rich and varied but seems incomprehensible regarding transgender ideology.

skyliner

I doubt any FWR regulars will report and hopefully mumsnet wont delete (cos its stupid reason to delete 😒)

But yawn used to be a deletable offence on here

Just a heads up in case it disappears 🙂

OP I don't think being an elderly man is an issue here.

You have logic. Hence, the crazy appears crazy to you.

Don't try to understand it, but if you can fight things like loss of safe spaces for women, by writing to your MP, please do.

Have lost the plot slightly on where the government are with all this.

Good luck 9toenails. You have regularly popped up in threads so I hope you get answers. Because we’d all like to see them.

Maybe our other male regulars will come on and give you their perspective. I’d love to see them all on one thread. But they are not so young, they are mature males who sometimes project their experiences as fitting all trans people. Still, it would be good.

@tara66

Mumof.. what is the meaning of ''strawman'' and ''steelman'' (in this context)? I think the English language is rich and varied but seems incomprehensible regarding transgender ideology.

I mean my attempt at defining what the new definition of women is (from my understanding of the ideology) might not be the fairest interpretation. But I'm yet to see an ideologue give a clear definition

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

skyliner

I doubt any FWR regulars will report and hopefully mumsnet wont delete (cos its stupid reason to delete 😒)

But yawn used to be a deletable offence on here

Just a heads up in case it disappears 🙂

Hilarious thanks 😂😂

No worries 😀

Bless was another one and for some weird reason

I honestly don’t think it will go but sometimes i look at a quite ‘bland’ thread and think ‘what the fuck happened 😳’

I know someone who got banned from mumsnet for "yawn". She headed over to Twitter instead where she is pretty vocal in support of feminists. But I digress...

The only way trans women are women is if we render the word "woman" completely meaningless. The distortion of language seems to be a common thread with cults.

9toenails

... I think this is because it is incomprehensible. It is not possible to understand something that does not make sense.

Correct. Saying a man is a woman necessarily demands a definition of woman other than adult human female.

You won't get one.

The closest you'll get is that one's self perception or inner identity or sense of self is as a woman. There is rarely any description, although I have heard it's because 'it makes me feel more vibrant' and 'I was jealous of the cool girls in Hollywood teen movies'. It's based on the stereotypes that eg males see through male experience and male eyes. And therefore bears little resemblance to the actually reality of women's lives. Because being 'rom com cool girls' isn't it.

And it's obviously not the basis for changing laws and removing sex segregation.

Something many more people appear to be waking up to.

As a bloke in the Autumn of life, I think the OP is going to be fine, their understanding of this subject is logical.
Sex is immutable, no human being has ever changed sex. Sex is determined at fertilisation and over the next five weeks the foetus produces hormones which will determine the sex organs.
Gender is a social construct, partly based on expected social/behavioural patters, or possibly more recently on how a person feels.
So, whilst ignoring very rare cases.
XY chromosomes - Male - boy/man
XX chromosomes - Female - girl/woman
Transwoman - Male
Transman - Female

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

No worries 😀

Bless was another one and for some weird reason

I honestly don’t think it will go but sometimes i look at a quite ‘bland’ thread and think ‘what the fuck happened 😳’

😂😂 I don't know the could get a deletion!

No neither did the person doing it skyliner im sure it came as quite the shock 😀

It only means ‘no comment’ 😳

I’d understand it it meant ‘fuck off and die’ or something!!

@rabbitwoman If it is John, that would be awesome! (me having a JC party)

Thanks for the responses. Apologies for not replying individually. A few things.

Re Butler and 'You just have to redefine what a woman is.' ...

I do not see how that can help. At best it just changes the subject. After this redefinition, we will have two meanings for 'women': let us call them 'women' (already extant meaning) and 'women2' (new, redefined meaning).

[This assumes, contrary to fact as far as I can see (and I have looked!) a redefinition that manages minimum requirements of self-consistence and non-circularity.]

OK, now, if 'women' means 'women2', 'transwomen are women' can be true. But why should I care about that? (Apart from it being potentially seriously misleading.) It leaves untouched the simple fact that 'transwomen are women' is analytically false if 'woman' means 'woman'.

That is at best, as I said. It is not what Butler and her ilk do, though. Without going too much into postmodern equivocations and the like, just notice the dependence on things like 'Butler's acceptance of the body as a historical idea'. Bodies are not historical ideas.

Perhaps there is a redefinition of 'body' ... But, again, why should we care? When I wrote just now, 'Bodies are not historical ideas', I meant 'bodies', not 'bodies2', whatever that might be.

In the end (or, perhaps, thinking of postmodern so-called thought, from the very beginning ), the ideology we criticise here does not make sense.

This might have strategic implications. Is it really worth marshalling scientific knowledge, statistical fact and so on, against an ideology that fails in its very beginnings to make any sense at all? I wonder. Perhaps a response to 'transwomen are women' might be, not 'No they are not ...according to science ... etc. ' but, rather, 'What on earth do you mean?'

Of course it may be necessary to tackle the consequences of the nonsense in practice. My (our) heartfelt thanks are due to all of you who have engaged politically, legally, socially in such practice. Somewhat to my surprise, it turns out this matters, something like the way other such nonsense like, say, transubstantiation used to matter. Let us hope transgender goes the way of transubstantiation and stops affecting the lives of those who see it for the foolishness it is.

[Just in passing, my boast/confession of my age (elderly) and sex (male) was occasioned by the title of that earlier thread begun by the soi-disant 'young feminist'. I hope that does not make this a forbidden thread about a thread.]

I think it's a red herring. I think the point is to twist logic so far that people spend all their time arguing that water is wet or trying to make sense of what is being said and miss what is actually being done.

@9toenails that is an excellent post.

I'm enjoying this thread, @9toenails. Many thanks.