When we talk about prostitution, we should focus on the buyers

[Clymene]

I was just reading a couple of tweets on Twitter about the images that the MSM uses in articles about prostitution - often women's bare legs and high heels.

The author suggested it would be better to have photos of the buyers instead so she linked to this blog by a German photographer who photographed and interviewed Johns in a brothel in Stuttgart

http://www.bettinaflitner.de/index.php?id=1270&L=1

She also links to a website with quotes from over 350 sex buyers from a cross Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I haven't read this because I don't have the stomach today (warnings about graphic descriptions of sexual violence).

dieunsichtbarenmaenner.wordpress.com/menu/

Both have English translations. The reality vs the 'sex work is work' position is pretty stark.

Blue moon yes.

Stop putting short skirts legs high heels bending over a car no head just body.

Show the man.

I read a thing a while ago about another topic. The prevalence of rape on TV shows. The rape is always shown from the rapists perspective. Looking down on the face of a scared woman in pain. Never her perspective.

It's a similar thing I suppose. Even in these things. Presented from the male gaze. Male pov.

In the Nordic Model, men are arrested, women are supported out of prostitution. The women need help with accommodation, medical assistance, therapy, drug treatment, education and actual jobs with contracts that protect them in law. These are the most vulnerable people that exist, they don't choose to rent their orifices and be traumatised out of their minds. Over 90% of prostituted women suffer violence, because the men see them as a sex doll to do whatever with, but they are actually women just like your daughter, sister or mother who have been very unfortunate.

MargaritaPie

"The groups I mentioned are made up of adults who sell sexual services themselves and I'm sure their claims are based on their own lived experiences, so shouldn't the sex workers("prostitutes") views themselves be held most important?"

The problem with your statement is that you are actually not answering the question 'how representative are these orgs.?' because of your focus on individuals and 'lived experience'. Are the spokespeople of these orgs representative of the majority of women in the sex industry? Do they reflect the average experience? To answer these questions you need solid facts, figures and aggregate data. And the facts and figures that we have look depressing, don't you think? The prevalence of violence, the fact that for most women this is not a job that pays well, the prevalence of trauma, both before and after entering the industry, the fact that migrant women (who are often socio-economically disenfranchised) are so over-represented ...

The term 'sexual services' covers a huge range of activities, also including pimping (because then you sell services performed by somebody else.)

Although I have actually not used the word "prostitutes" on this thread I want to comment on your language policing, which is something people use to project moral superiority in a passive-aggressive way. Bourgeois liberals tend to enjoy it. I am very happy to tell you straight up that I think your point of view is morally deficient, as it ignores harm and avoids the basic question whether consent to sexual activity can ever be bought in a meaningful way.

It is true that there is a difference between legalisation and decriminalisation, and that I got the two mixed up. The Nordic model is partial decriminalisation, however, this is not what the 'sex work is work' activists embrace.

Even those countries that have decriminalisation, not legalisation, have problems, e.g. New Zealand. I cannot think of an example worldwide where the majority of women are actually thriving in this industry. (You will always find a high profile escort with a success story but you cannot make social policy on the basis of anecdote.) If you have one, let me know.

And my basic point remains: even if it were the case that women in the sex industry are doing well, do we really want to empower an industry that inscribes fundamental inequality between men and women (majority of sex buyers are male, majority of sex sellers are female)? That systematically and intentionally confuses simulated sexual expression with the authentic sexuality of women? That produces the above-mentioned review boards? I know it's old-fashioned to think of 'public morals' but maybe it's time to revisit that.

@dayoftheclownfish surely we don't want women to thrive in this industry/profession, we want it not to exist, or at least for them to be safe, able to leave, and not forced into it by economic circumstances or coercion?

@MargaritaPie

"from a smelly bloke"

In legal or decriminalised jurisdictions at least, sex workers have the right to refuse service to customers who don't meet hygiene standards.

I keep hearing this as an argument. They can refuse clients now too. There’s no cab-rank rule for sex workers. They usually don’t of course because that could put them at risk of violence from the punters and most are desperate for money so won’t turn down a punter. What precisely is decriminalisation going to do? Do you imagine it will somehow make punters treat sex workers with respect? Because it won’t, I can guarantee it.

Also, while I certainly believe that sex workers’ experiences should be listened to, why do the decriminalisation crowd never listen to the experiences of women who have escaped prostitution and who support the Nordic model? It’s disingenuous to pretend that all sex workers sing from one hymn sheet.

Those who are current sex workers will often be motivated by issues such as being able to get enough work and oppose the Nordic model on that basis. Often they can’t truly see the issues until they are out of the sex trade. A useful analogy is abusive relationships. Many many people in an abusive relationship will deny that the perpetrator is anything but lovely. That’s why I don’t formulate domestic violence policy by taking women who stick by their violent partners at their word when they say that the relationship is great.

@dayoftheclownfish

Just read the reviews that male sex buyers leave on various websites. Then tell me again that this is a ‘normal’ job.

Even though many will pretend otherwise, this discussion isn’t about whether the women who sell sexual access to their bodies should be stigmatised - of course they shouldn’t! What a stupid thing to suggest! - but whether men should have the right to this access.

Let’s put it like this: even those men who do not buy ‘sexual services’ but insist that ‘sex work is work’ (whatever that means) can be safe in the knowledge that no matter how unattractive and unappealing they personally are, somewhere out there is a woman whose body they can legitimately access. That’s what it’s about, and it is disingenuous to deny it.

Must be an empowering feeling to be able to walk this world knowing that whether you’re ugly, mean, stupid, drunk, violent, you will still be able to find a woman who will give you intimate pleasure and pretend that you are none of these things, while ‘not being your equal in pleasure or consent.’ (S. Ditum) It’s truly an empowering industry (for the buyers).

You hit the nail on the head here.

Why don't you research what has happened in Germany? They decriminalised prostitution in the early 2000s under a left-wing government and it has been quite an 'interesting' social experiment.

Actually Germany legalised prostitution in 2002 not decriminalise it. It’s never been criminalised in Germany.

I think decriminalisation- which means that the prostitutes are not treated as criminals but victims, but the buyers are treated as criminals and prosecuted is the initial first step that has to occur. Decriminalisation includes prosecuting pimps/madams. To me, though this is a necessary stepping stone to abolishment of prostitution as the final goal. Should be aiming to support these women (and the few male prostitutes) into education/new careers. Did the same for the coal miners, retrained them and found them different work. The government can afford to do same for prostitutes.

I don’t like how the definition of “sex work” has been watered down from meaning selling sex to other look only sexy activity like pole dancing, burlesque, belly dancing, web cam, lingerie modelling, etc. It is deliberate because the activists want a show of thousands of women protesting to keep their jobs. But to me, there is a vital difference between actually having sex versus putting on a show that has sex appeal. I have no objection to any of this sort of sex work so long as there is no touching between performer and customer.

PlanDeRaccordement I realise I got my terms mixed up, my bad, see above.

It would be interesting to know if we can all agree that the current situation in Germany is not desirable?

Do I want women to thrive in prostitution? That’s not really one of my life goals, no. I find it hard to imagine that it can ever be something positive for the vast majority of women but I like to keep an open mind.

@dayoftheclownfish
I wholeheartedly agree that Germany created a monstrous situation for women. I also cannot see any way for prostitution to be desirable for women to thrive in. The supply of women who are truly consenting to sell sex is always far below the demand of men who want to buy sex. This imbalance always leads to criminal sex trafficking.

00:28 ACatWhoBinds

Wow that was really quick.
I'm sure "Punternet" has an automatic alert when a thread on prostitution pops up here.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@dayoftheclownfish
I wholeheartedly agree that Germany created a monstrous situation for women. I also cannot see any way for prostitution to be desirable for women to thrive in. The supply of women who are truly consenting to sell sex is always far below the demand of men who want to buy sex. This imbalance always leads to criminal sex trafficking.[/quote]
I agree. I worry that we are now at a point in society where the received woke answer to this supply /demand imbalance is to “remove the stigma” and encourage more women to supply.

What gets me is that the reality of prostitution in Germany must have been known for close to a decade but politicians are only now, slowly, thinking about changing the law, from what I can tell. And it was the left-wing parties who made this possible!

In the age of Tinder, can you really uphold the fiction that men ‘need’ to buy sex? And surely, isn’t it a bit embarrassing to have to pay for something that you should be able to get for free? (Enthusiastic consent etc.?)

It’s taken me a while to realise that Germany isn’t as woman friendly as I originally thought it was. It’s pretty old fashioned as a society tbh.

I like the idea of shifting the focus away from the women and onto the men. So every story should have an illustration of some tragic punter, instead of some salacious photo of a skimpily dressed woman. Let’s get the punters out of the shadows and onto centre stage, if it’s all such good clean fun. Nothing to be ashamed of!

It will certainly help me to focus the withering contempt I feel for men who think they’re entitled to buy the bodies of women and girls. Unless they’d enjoy that contempt, in which case I withhold it.

@Grellbunt
I worry that we are now at a point in society where the received woke answer to this supply /demand imbalance is to “remove the stigma” and encourage more women to supply.

Yes me too. Women/girls are already hyper-sexualised from their early teens. I think to encourage more casual sex or sex sooner on in relationships than some women are really emotionally comfortable with.

@dayoftheclownfish
can you really uphold the fiction that men ‘need’ to buy sex?

It is a fiction. Always has been about men and their fantasies. The point of men buying sex is so that they can access women who would not normally consent to have sex with them. Often older men with much younger women.

Just coming on to say that I completely agree, OP. Who are they anyway.

I think decriminalisation- which means that the prostitutes are not treated as criminals but victims, but the buyers are treated as criminals and prosecuted is the initial first step that has to occur. Decriminalisation includes prosecuting pimps/madams. To me, though this is a necessary stepping stone to abolishment of prostitution as the final goal. Should be aiming to support these women (and the few male prostitutes) into education/new careers

That's not decriminalisation as in German/Irish/Leeds model, which is where basically nothing is done and anything goes for all involved, we're supposed to believe "workers rights" are in place under decrimimalisation.

The above is a description of the "Nordic Model". Where punters are criminalised, but prostitutes are not. Or it's known as a "part criminalisation" model. Not full criminalisation as in some States of America and most of Africa where everyone involved is acting illegally (and in practice the women routinely get arrested but the men don't).

Have you all come across the # invisible Men project? It's on Tumblr (and possibly Twitter?) It's a very eye opening account of reviews left by anonymous men about their paid for shag.

@Gncq
that's not decriminalisation as in German/Irish/Leeds model,

I am not familiar with the Irish and Leeds model, but the German model is full legalisation, not decriminalisation.

PlanDa No, you're right I'm all muddled up so I had to pop over to Google. The Irish model is in fact the "Nordic Model" not decrim and yes German is legalized not decrim.

The Leeds model is euphemistically called a "managed approach" so it protects women from prosecution who are engaged in soliciting which is illegal in the wider UK.

Decrimimalisation is found in New Zealand and Australia.

Nordic Model is a part criminalisation approach that protects sex workers from prosecution but criminalises punters. So I basically agree with you but the terminology is different.

Just to add, in Britain pimping (all aspects of pimping, this includes providing any service at all including making a website for a sex worker, being a driver or taking photographs) is illegal. Street prostitution (except for the Leeds tolerated area) is illegal including buying of sexual services.

If the Nordic model is so great why is it not supported by sex worker groups themselves, or local and international human rights and health orgs such as Amnesty Int, the World Health Org, UNAIDS, Global Alliance against Trafficked women, HIV Scotland the National AIDS Trust etc? Are they all "working with the pimp lobby"?