Jane Garvey - most woman’s hour listeners not interested in the trans debate

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

How is it that women like JG still don’t get it? It’s not the “trans” debate it’s actually the women’s debate because by granting any and all rights designed for women to people who are male, you eradicate everything that was designed for women. That affects half the population of this country! It’s so disingenuous to frame this as being about the “trans” issue and saying ‘oooh well it’s only a few people isn’t it’

No it’s not a few people! It’s all women, everywhere

@Clymene yes, I stopped listening to Radio 4 some time ago as I felt

Hit post, by mistake. Was going to say, as I felt like they never represented the other side of the debate, 'or non-debate' and really that they had been captured by the woke brigade - which up until a few years ago, I was probably on the fringes off, or at the very least supportive of.

I can see her point. My definition of a woman is like the majority view on here however I know amongst my early thirties age group of friends I am in a minority of 1. Mumsnet FWR in no way represents the views of the wider female population. So I can see this is a battle we should probably have to move on from at some point and focus on the other issues women face.

She’s probably technically not wrong that most WH listeners don’t care that much, because a LOT of us stopped listening to WH because they were ignoring this issue. I used to listen every day; haven’t for probably 2 years now.

You would have thought that WH would have been interested in exploring why a poster of Woman = Adult Human Female had been removed because it was offensive. Or examining just what it was that JKR had said to make Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson so angry. But no, nothing of interest to women here.

I've often said that I'm not sure JG is either a feminist or GC and people always say she absolutely is, but my jury's still out on her. I do understand that there are loads of things that women need to be discussing these days, but the potential loss of the word 'woman' to describe XX people seems to me so fundamental that they should have been covering it, in one way or another, every bloody day.

There are ways of reporting on these things and keeping women informed without constantly going on about the trans issue. They could have had Susie Dent from dictionary corner discussing the etymology of the word 'woman' and got the point home to the listeners without a mention of transgender ideology. They could have talked to Keira Bell and others like her. They could have investigated women's sport. But no. The largest, most organised push, backed by a men's rights movement, politicians, the media and some very famous people to erase 'woman' — and bloody Woman's Hour doesn't like to get involved? They leave it to Janice Turner and Glinner and Mumsnet and women like us to form groups, lobby politicians, make a fuss — on top of everything else we have to do. And Jane Garvey is at least partly responsible for this.

Yep. I stopped listening to WH precisely because they wouldn't cover the issue. Or when they did, TRAs seemed to have editorial control and refused to be on the same platform as GC women. Issues had to be tip toed around and the result was opaque and unclear to anyone not versed in the subject. She is wrong. Women are interested when they find out what it's about. WH ensured they weren't well informed. It seems like a dig at Jenny Murray too.

Perhaps if it hadn't been framed as 'the trans debate' and instead framed as discussing issues that impact women, her listeners may have been more interested. Things like:
All women shortlists in the labour party/Green Party describing women as 'non-men' - as shedbuilder said, Susie Dent could have discussed that and the way we are defined by our organs, whereas men are still men

Women in sports

The way that so many LAs and other bodies have quietly dropped the word 'sex' from their EO policies

Single sex changing rooms - M&S and their change of heart, Centerparcs and their misinterpretation of the law ...

I would say that all these things are of interest to women actually

I agree, Clymene. WH had a duty to raise these issues. IMO they failed.

I've often said that I'm not sure JG is either a feminist or GC and people always say she absolutely is, but my jury's still out on her. I do understand that there are loads of things that women need to be discussing these days, but the potential loss of the word 'woman' to describe XX people seems to me so fundamental that they should have been covering it, in one way or another, every bloody day.

I think you were right about her Shedbuilder.

Would JG be happy to present Cervix-Haver's Hour? Or a Woman's Hour with segments about women's testicular health?
It sounds preposterous, but look what happened to the Labour MP who said that only women have a cervix.

It's exasperating. This really isn't a debate about "trans" issues. It's a debate about a full-scale assault on women's rights that is being driven by men's rights activists. If she doesn't understand that, then it's probably just as well that she's leaving.

I agree, RoyalCorgi. Sick of the constant framing as being all about "trans rights" and only tangentially relevant to women, so that we have to justify why we want a discussion and a seat at the table.

Yeah nothing to do with trans rights.

Everything to do with erasure of women and girls

Erosion of boundaries for children

I never listen to it

@Wherehavetheteletubbiesgone

I can see her point. My definition of a woman is like the majority view on here however I know amongst my early thirties age group of friends I am in a minority of 1. Mumsnet FWR in no way represents the views of the wider female population. So I can see this is a battle we should probably have to move on from at some point and focus on the other issues women face.

But if the category of 'woman' also includes any man who decides to identify as a woman, then we only have a single category of 'people', with women no longer existing as a distinct group.

So the other issues women face would also include those experienced exclusively by men, since men would also be included in the category of women.

You can't focus on 'women's issues' in the sense of those relevant to adult human females if the category of women also includes men.

I can see her point. My definition of a woman is like the majority view on here however I know amongst my early thirties age group of friends I am in a minority of 1.

That's interesting - in my early 40s age group of friends the feeling is definitely that women are of the adult/human/female definition and there's a great deal of sympathy for people struggling, but that we have issues that are unique to females (perhaps because we're all mums and carers, and probably 50% of us have female specific health issues). There's also sympathy, but a line in the sand around medicating children unnecessarily.

Any programme supposed to be for the adult human females that constantly centres comments from adult human males or features such as make up for same adult human males will be losing a lot of their core listeners. Having said that, today there was an item about violence to women and girls, and the interviewer pushed a lot about actions not words eg, actually prosecuting and convicting rapists not just yet another call for evidence. Quite impressed by the comparative rigour, though again not entirely sure about which category of women they were talking about!

I think that there is a general problem with peoples engagement with issues that affect them generally in the UK. Look at all the people that haven't a clue about so much that directly affects their life.

It's a failure - or a feature - of our press to be able to dictate the agenda and thus public perception of the issue.

Look at this from the Endometriosis U.K. yesterday:

"Campaign Update - Wales:

Last night the Welsh Government debated the Curriculum for Wales Bill – and over half of those in attendance supported Endometriosis UK’s and FTWW’s calls for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education.

It is absolutely vital that all young people, regardless of gender, understand what is happening to their bodies as they go through puberty, and recognise the symptoms of what a normal menstrual cycle is, so they know when and how to seek help if something isn’t right. Without this knowledge, young people will continue to suffer in silence, without access to the help and support they need; potentially having a huge impact on their physical and mental health, education and future career. The next step of this campaign is a further debate in the Senedd next year, where Endometriosis UK & FTWW will continue to raise your voices and call for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education in schools."

Girls do not get mentioned once. How can a charity educate if it cannot mention its target audience by name?

This is the sort of issue WH should be discussing.

This is the sort of issue WH should be discussing.

No matter how much we all agree, the challenge is make them.

Jane Garvey is sort of right as, because the BBC failed to report on the proposed eradication of women as a sex class, a majority of women did dismissed this as an issue. The BBC are hugely responsible for this with their "be kind and ignore threats" and total lack of coverage until recently of anything except the 'sacred caste' mantras.
BUT - as women are increasingly aware that women's sports are being dismantled in favour of mediocre males, that women are being renamed as cervix havers, cis, non men etc etc and that their daughters and elderly mothers are now expected to navigate puberty to old age when undressing and vulnerable in hospital wards, changing rooms etc in the company of any male who decides they wish to invade female spaces, suddenly there is increasing push back.

Had Woman's Hour actually covered this rather than punishing Jenni Murray for speaking out maybe women would have been included in the discussions rather than completely excluded.

Nothing about us without us.

Yeah it’s only girls that get periods

Why can’t they even say that word

Girls.

Nothing about us without us

t is absolutely vital that all young people, regardless of gender, understand what is happening to their bodies as they go through puberty, and recognise the symptoms of what a normal menstrual cycle is, so they know when and how to seek help if something isn’t right.
...

Endometriosis UK & FTWW will continue to raise your voices and call for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education in schools.

The gender here is annoying but also I think the issue is GPs/HCP and getting past them not that women and girls not being aware that have issues - its often getting anyone to listen and investigate and I say that as some one who had decades of heavy periods.

I do think woman’s hour has been piss poor on this topic and it's wide ranging implications for 51% of the population like many others at the BBC.

@Clymene

Look at this from the Endometriosis U.K. yesterday:

"Campaign Update - Wales:

Last night the Welsh Government debated the Curriculum for Wales Bill – and over half of those in attendance supported Endometriosis UK’s and FTWW’s calls for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education.

It is absolutely vital that all young people, regardless of gender, understand what is happening to their bodies as they go through puberty, and recognise the symptoms of what a normal menstrual cycle is, so they know when and how to seek help if something isn’t right. Without this knowledge, young people will continue to suffer in silence, without access to the help and support they need; potentially having a huge impact on their physical and mental health, education and future career. The next step of this campaign is a further debate in the Senedd next year, where Endometriosis UK & FTWW will continue to raise your voices and call for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education in schools."

Girls do not get mentioned once. How can a charity educate if it cannot mention its target audience by name?

This is the sort of issue WH should be discussing.

Exactly. These things are already happening. Is JG not aware, or does she not care? Either way it's poor form for someone who gets paid to talk about women's issues.

@LadyOfTheImprovisedBath

t is absolutely vital that all young people, regardless of gender, understand what is happening to their bodies as they go through puberty, and recognise the symptoms of what a normal menstrual cycle is, so they know when and how to seek help if something isn’t right. ...

Endometriosis UK & FTWW will continue to raise your voices and call for compulsory menstrual wellbeing education in schools.

The gender here is annoying but also I think the issue is GPs/HCP and getting past them not that women and girls not being aware that have issues - its often getting anyone to listen and investigate and I say that as some one who had decades of heavy periods.

I do think woman’s hour has been piss poor on this topic and it's wide ranging implications for 51% of the population like many others at the BBC.

But it isn't 'all young people', it is just girls. Gender identity is irrelevant. A health education charity cannot afford to pretend that gender identity affects biological sex.

They literally have one job and they're screwing it up.

They literally have one job and they're screwing it up.

No they're screwing up in two ways.

First using gender not sex - and avoiding use of girls and women a point I agreed with and several PP had made.

Second - there assuming it's women and girls with problems need who "educating" not HCP who frequently dismiss these issues and are are usually behind the huge delays in diagnosis and treatments. While it may "raise awarness" and possibly worry/educate half the school population it may end up directly affect - it actually does nothing to impove the situation of women who are suffering from this disease. It's a huge time and effort for something that will have minimal effect on making any changes for the better and women will still spend years going back and forth to GPs trying to get help.