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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The US Supreme Court now accepts (or, rather, doesn't reject) transgender toilets and locker rooms in the USA

23 replies

nickymanchester · 14/12/2020 17:11

This is a week old so apologies if there have already been threads on this that I haven't noticed.

I have some connections with the area so I tend to keep in touch with what's happening there. There has been a long running case in the state of Oregon concerning transgender toilets and changing rooms in schools. The parents have fought it all the way to the Supreme Court but they have now been told that the Supreme Court refuse to hear the appeal so they have lost:-

Supreme Court rejects appeal over Oregon school district’s restroom policy for transgender students

So, as it stands now, it's full steam ahead for gender free changing rooms in Oregon and elsewhere in the States.

This prompted me to have a read of the Court of Appeal judgment in the case and I was really shocked by some of the things that had happened.

Also, quite shocked that the language used in the judgment was all "assigned at birth" and "cisgender" etc - very different from the judgment in the High Court here in the UK with the Keira Bell case.

The full judgment is here as a pdf:-

Parents for Privacy v Dallas School District No 2

Some background and highlights from the judgment:-

In September 2015, a student at Dallas High School who had been born and who remained biologically female publicly identified as a boy, and he asked school officials to allow him to use the boys’ bathroom and locker room.

[...]

Student A began using the boys’ locker room and changing clothes “while male students were present.” This caused several cisgender boys “embarrassment, humiliation, anxiety, intimidation, fear, apprehension, and stress,” because they had to change clothes for their PE class and attend to their needs while someone who had been assigned the opposite sex at birth was present. Although privacy stalls were available in the bathrooms, these were insufficient to alleviate the cisgender boys’ fear of exposing themselves to Student A, because the stalls had gaps through which “partially unclothed bodies” could “inadvertently” be seen.

[...]

As a consequence of their fear of exposure to Student A, some cisgender boys began using the restroom as little as possible while at school, and others risked tardiness by using distant restrooms during passing periods in order to try to find a restroom in which Student A was unlikely to be present.

When parents and other students in the Dallas community became aware of the Student Safety Plan, many opposed it publicly at successive school board meetings, in an effort to dissuade the District from implementing the policy. Some parents in the District are concerned and anxious about the prospect of their children using locker rooms or bathrooms together with a student who was assigned the opposite biological sex at birth. The Student Safety Plan also interferes with some parents’ preferred moral and/or religious teaching of their children concerning modesty and nudity. In addition, several cisgender girls suffered from stress and anxiety as a result of their fear that a transgender girl student who remains biologically male would be allowed to use the girls’ locker room and bathroom. Girls had the option of changing in the nurse’s office, but it was on the other side of the school.

So, the above are some of the highlights of the background to the case.

The parents went on to make two claims, one under the 14th Amendment (right to privacy) and one under Title IX (sex based discrimination).

The parents contended that the 14th Amendment extended to privacy for your actual body as well, but the court held, due to various existing US precedents, that this wasn't the case and that:-

...the potential threat that a high school student might see or be seen by someone of the opposite biological sex while either are undressing or performing bodily functions in a restroom, shower, or locker room does not give rise to a constitutional violation

[...]

This conclusion is supported by the fact that the Student Safety Plan provides alternative options and privacy protections to those who do not want to share facilities with a transgender student, even though those alternative options admittedly appear inferior and less convenient.

(so those opposed to this get shoved off out of the way)

They also failed under the Title IX claim which the court characterised as:-

Plaintiffs contend that the district court erred in failing to recognize that the District’s policy violates Title IX by turning locker rooms, showers, and multi-user restrooms into sexually harassing environments and by forcing students to forgo use of such facilities as the solution to harassment.

The court didn't accept this and said that because transgender pupils were allowed in both male and female changing rooms then there was no discrimination based on sex, in other words since boys and girls are treated equally badly then it doesn't count (It would have been different if the Plan had applied to transgender boys only or transgender girls only)

So, that is the state of play in the USA at the moment. It really is quite frightening.

It's also interesting to hear that it's also boys who are complaining about transboys having access to male spaces as, certainly in this country, it seems to always be about transwomen wanting access to female spaces.

OP posts:
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 14/12/2020 17:25

I was startled to read this was boys feeling embarrassed and distressed by a girl insisting on using their facilities. But when you think about it -- why not? They feel as invaded as I would.

It just shows that, how little anyone knew or thought about this sudden social change before introducing it. And boys are expected to 'man up' and not complain.

Doubtless some of these lads are being mocked by tougher boys, and others are forcing themselves to hide reactions that make them feel weak. And they'll all learn not to show their feelings or look like a sissy etc. What a horrible, stupid mess.

OhHolyJesus · 14/12/2020 17:27

I absolutely see why the boys would be uncomfortable, I'm disgusted that 'privacy' doesn't extend to your body not being exposed to the opposite sex, in this case, what a ridiculous stance to take by a court.

What can the parents do as the next step?

Floisme · 14/12/2020 17:38

My son would have been mortified.

Angryresister · 14/12/2020 17:49

Bad news. So all those students and parents ignored. Crazy stuff in a country where schools could well be sued if assaults take place.why why why?

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/12/2020 17:55

Its just not right is it Angry

Boys and girls both need and deserve privacy from the opposite sex.

Adults should be upholding safeguarding. Not dismantling it for woke points

highame · 14/12/2020 18:11

The only route now is direct action. Protests, marches etc. Students picketing school gates. Only thing I can think of

EyesOpening · 14/12/2020 18:34

Are boys and girls normally kept separate in these instances over there? I really just don’t understand the reasoning behind keeping boys and girls separate if they decide to let people with the same anatomy as boys into the girls changing rooms (and vice versa)
Are there any indecent exposure laws over there? I don’t understand the difference between this and getting your genitals out where other people aren’t consenting.
Also I feel it gives power into the hands of those people (who may or may not realise or abuse it) by forcing other people (the original users) to have to go elsewhere - I’m more thinking of boys using it to lord over girls, as some do.
Hope I’m making sense!

nauticant · 14/12/2020 19:14

I suppose that the Supreme Court (US) is stuck at the Jolyon Maugham level of understanding: gender dysphoria, brain in wrong body, transsexuality, while the High Court (UK) has moved considerably beyond that.

FWRLurker · 14/12/2020 19:31

SCOTUS Actual ruling on trans issues was extremely sensible and used sex-based language none of the Assigned nonsense.

They’ve decided to kick this one down the road. The solution is more lawsuits until SCOTUS takes notice.

GrinitchSpinach · 14/12/2020 20:42

The solution is more lawsuits until SCOTUS takes notice. Agreed on this point.

unwashedanddazed · 14/12/2020 23:40

I find it very difficult to get my head around a teenage female who is so gender dysphoric that they consider themselves to be trans, having the confidence to strip off in a room full of boys. And strip off to the extent that the boys are distressed by it which suggests not much in the way of modesty. This is bizarre behaviour for a teenager, at a time when most crave privacy. Gender dysphoric people frequently report great discomfort at revealing their bodies in public and even in private to themselves. I'd suggest this young person needs intervention rather than affirmation.

Whatwouldscullydo · 15/12/2020 06:56

That's a good point unwashed

And overly sexual behaviour can be a sign of abuse cant it? You are right they need help not this...

Malahaha · 15/12/2020 07:32

Excellent point, unwashed.
The one good thing to come of this is that this will be a generation that has gone right to the p**k summit, and will grow up to fight against the nonsense they have actually experienced; it's not just woke words. Teenagers know very well the difference between male and female bodies, and no amount of woke indoctrination can change that.

OhHolyJesus · 15/12/2020 07:48

I also thought that Unwashed, I would usually consider that behaviour predatory but then this is a female teenager so it makes you wonder what is behind both the dysphoria and the insistence to be naked or partially naked whilst the boys are too.

This is a safeguarding red flag and the courts have ok'd it.

I'm hoping that Jill is talking to Joe about this and I'm really hoping that she understands the issues better than he does.

testing987654321 · 15/12/2020 08:15

And strip off to the extent that the boys are distressed by it which suggests not much in the way of modesty.

I've only read the extracts on here, but I was getting the impression the boys were distressed at themselves not having privacy.

Floisme · 15/12/2020 08:44

In my experience, adolescent boys are unbelievably self conscious. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that they're distressed.

CaraDuneRedux · 15/12/2020 08:56

@Floisme

In my experience, adolescent boys are unbelievably self conscious. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that they're distressed.
Quite - my DS is very self conscious and (quite rightly) liked privacy.
Deliriumoftheendless · 15/12/2020 09:55

I don’t understand how it would ease discomfort in your body undressing around those who have completely different bodies to you. Would it not underline how different you are from the sex you identify as?

FWRLurker · 15/12/2020 12:04

My understanding is that there is no claim that the trans boy “stripped down” in front of anyone - rather that the other boys felt immodest about undressing in front of a member of the opposite sex (who in fact many of them had known as a girl before transitioning). It seems likely that everyone involved was fighting over the few available stalls...

Of course, this matters too but I am just clarifying.

LadyOfTheImprovisedBath · 15/12/2020 12:13

@Floisme

In my experience, adolescent boys are unbelievably self conscious. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that they're distressed.
DS is - actually one who has most issue with odd school toilets open to corridors - my girls to my surpised much less bothered.

Frequently seems to me teen boy needs for privacy are often overlooked.

SebastianTheCrab · 15/12/2020 19:49

That the boys brought the suit doesn't surprise me at all. In fact it reminds me of
an excellent long article on The Atlantic a couple of years ago about how the culture wars had come for American public (state) schools. Here's the salient part:

The bathroom crisis hit our school the same year our son took the standardized tests. A girl in second grade had switched to using male pronouns, adopted the initial Q as a first name, and begun dressing in boys’ clothes. Q also used the boys’ bathroom, which led to problems with other boys. Q’s mother spoke to the principal, who, with her staff, looked for an answer. They could have met the very real needs of students like Q by creating a single-stall bathroomthe one in the second-floor clinic would have served the purpose. Instead, the school decided to get rid of boys’ and girls’ bathrooms altogether. If, as the city’s Department of Education now instructed, schools had to allow students to use the bathroom of their self-identified gender, then getting rid of the labels would clear away all the confusion around the bathroom question. A practical problem was solved in conformity with a new idea about identity.
Within two years, almost every bathroom in the school, from kindergarten through fifth grade, had become gender-neutral. Where signs had once said boys and girls, they now said students. Kids would be conditioned to the new norm at such a young age that they would become the first cohort in history for whom gender had nothing to do with whether they sat or stood to pee. All that biology entailedcuriosity, fear, shame, aggression, pubescence, the thing between the legs—was erased or wished away.
The school didn’t inform parents of this sudden end to an age-old custom, as if there were nothing to discuss. Parents only heard about it when children started arriving home desperate to get to the bathroom after holding it in all day. Girls told their parents mortifying stories of having a boy kick open their stall door. Boys described being afraid to use the urinals. Our son reported that his classmates, without any collective decision, had simply gone back to the old system, regardless of the new signage: Boys were using the former boys’ rooms, girls the former girls’ rooms. This return to the familiar was what politicians call a “commonsense solution.” It was also kind of heartbreaking. As children, they didn’t think to challenge the new adult rules, the new adult ideas of justice. Instead, they found a way around this difficulty that the grown-ups had introduced into their lives. It was a quiet plea to be left alone.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/10/when-the-culture-war-comes-for-the-kids/596668/

dyslek · 16/12/2020 13:36

hmm, so american children dont have a right to not be viewed naked. I wonder who would be thrilled by that decission?

MoleSmokes · 19/01/2021 14:46

@dyslek

hmm, so american children dont have a right to not be viewed naked. I wonder who would be thrilled by that decission?
The sort of teacher, like this one in Madison in 2020, who is protesting about the “transphobic policy” of a school that fails to force little girls to share a “bathroom” with them.

ourliveswisconsin.com/article/open-letter-from-vica-steel-madison-metropolitan-school-district-is-currently-enacting-a-transphobic-policy/

2018: Florida. Meanwhile a male teacher faces the sack for refusing to observe a naked teenage female student showering:

www.wnd.com/2018/10/male-teacher-ordered-to-observe-teen-girl-in-shower/

Mothers of boys would not be surprised that the boys in the main story found it acutely embarrassing to be forced to undress in a mixed-sex changing room at school. I do not have sons but I have brothers, nephews, etc. The idea that boys would always be comfortable in mixed-sex changing facilities or that all would relish the thought of using them is bizarre.

The problem is when a very small number of children of either sex are supported by adults in transgressing the boundaries of the majority.

If we are really concerned about safeguarding children then that means all children.

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