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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock puberty blocker study published

393 replies

PaleBlueMoonlight · 11/12/2020 20:56

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55282113

Finds 43/44 (98%) progress from PBS to cross sex hormones

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21
GAHgamel · 11/12/2020 23:21

nauticant:
Trans twitter is coalescing around a response to this problematic paper: the Tavistock are so good at identifying "trans kids" that of course nearly all of the children moved seamlessly from puberty blockers to cross-sex hormones.

Any child starting cross-sex hormone treatment is itself proof that the child is trans.

Of course Keira Bell shows that that isn't necessarily the case. And why the hell isn't the Tavistock doing long term follow up? Surely for a treatment of this nature they should be trying to ascertain whether it has long term benefits rather than just giving a short term boost, although by the looks of things, it's not even doing that.

PlantMam · 11/12/2020 23:29

The vast majority of current kids presenting with gender dysphoria would be ruled out by the participant inclusion/exclusion criteria, especially the gender dysphoria having persisted for over 5 years bit.

Of course, these kids were recruited before the big spike in referrals began.

According to this, GIDs referrals for 2009/2010 totalled 97 and fewer than 50% of those matched the age criteria (and not all of those would tick the other inclusion boxes)

gids.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/content_uploads/referral-figures-2016-17.pdf

GIDs only set out to recruit around 45 kids because that’s the number they expected to have on their books who matched all the criteria in the time frame.

Does Webberley not understand this?
Has she read the study before tweeting?

Because it says on page 6 that GIDs only anticipated recruiting 10-15 patients per year for 3 years so you don’t even have to read the whole thing before they explain why 44!

Datun · 11/12/2020 23:53

Placemarking

Tierful · 11/12/2020 23:59

It’s what we’ve all been banging on about abd yet to read it in black and white. Heartbreaking.

There needs to be accountability.

Haworthia · 12/12/2020 00:03

Of course they progress on to cross sex hormones after puberty blockers. Of COURSE they do. TRAs pretend that blockers just give kids time to think, but they don’t stay in childlike stasis for year after year, they go onto cross sex hormones. We all knew that. Now we have proof.

stumbledin · 12/12/2020 00:10

What is most disturbing is that the start of this "journey" is the incredibly flimsy, antiquated and unscientific basis on which they assess a child as being gender dysphoric. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4096882-Surely-this-list-of-behaviours-that-challenge-social-convention-are-not-THE-list-used-by-medical-professionals-to-diagnos-gender-dysphoria

Sad Angry

MoonPomme · 12/12/2020 00:16

"There needs to be accountability."
Too right.
Aka. Heads need to fucking roll.
Poor kids.
I cant get my head around how this has been allowed to happen.

StellaAndCrow · 12/12/2020 00:34

As mentioned above, from the board paper "21 Patient Story
The board were visited at the start of their meeting by Ms E, her son F (12) and her daughter G (11); the children were both patients of the Trust. "
A parent with two children being treated by the trust - hmmm, what's the chance of that?

OldCrone · 12/12/2020 00:35

@stumbledin

What is most disturbing is that the start of this "journey" is the incredibly flimsy, antiquated and unscientific basis on which they assess a child as being gender dysphoric. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4096882-Surely-this-list-of-behaviours-that-challenge-social-convention-are-not-THE-list-used-by-medical-professionals-to-diagnos-gender-dysphoria

Sad Angry

And it's not even clear what the 'problem' is that they're trying to solve. Here's part of the introduction from the Tavistock paper.

Gender dysphoria (GD) describes the experience of incongruence between an individual’s experienced gender and the sex they were assigned at birth. ... Interventions include psychosocial support, therapy and medical or surgical interventions to align the body with the identified gender. Terminology in this field can be challenging. Here we use birth-registered sex to refer to the sex assigned at birth by clinicians based upon external genitalia. Gender identity refers to a young person’s personal sense of their gender.

What is an 'experienced gender' and an 'identified gender'? And how would these be assessed in children?

What do they mean by a 'personal sense of their gender'?

We get a bit of a clue later when they talk about 'cross-gendered behaviours' being one of the criteria that they use to decide whether to give a child puberty blockers. What can these behaviours be based on other than stereotypes?

So they've been sterilising children because they don't conform to stereotypes.

StellaAndCrow · 12/12/2020 00:38

Board paper from 2015 mentions the influence of "parents support/pressure group":

"The appropriate management of Gender Dysphoria in children and adolescents is contentious and debated in the absence of an adequate evidence base.
*A currently small number of families, usually associated with a long standing parents support/pressure group, have been vociferous about their frustration with our protocol for physical intervention. Specifically, the time taken to complete a comprehensive assessment of Gender Dysphoria prior to referral for physical intervention is referred to as “a delay in treatment” and there is increasing pressure to offer cross sex hormones from the age of 14 years, rather than the current 16 years."

The board report also notes bullying of staff prior to 2013.

Clymene · 12/12/2020 00:40

SUNLIGHT

stumbledin · 12/12/2020 00:46

So they've been sterilising children because they don't conform to stereotypes.

This is what it seems to be - and no one is asking where these children and getting this conviction that being non-conforming is somehow wrong.

We need to start a celebration of non conforming! And I dont mean a festival of a zillion identities, but a celebration of breaking stereotypes.

(And challenge the behaviour of parents!)

ChestnutStuffing · 12/12/2020 00:46

@PaleBlueMoonlight

No control.
I don't imagine it's possible to do so. They can't randomly assign some children to taking blockers and others to not. I suppose you could compare children that didn't take them but the question would be whether that was because they weren't really trans or their dysphoria wasn't as serious, or the parents objected, or something along those lines. Or
StellaAndCrow · 12/12/2020 00:49

It seems to have been surprisingly difficult to introduce staff id badges, long discussion about reasons for using them "We have argued in the past that there are advantages for service users in terms of reducing stigma through our not identifying staff."

StellaAndCrow · 12/12/2020 00:56

"With the increase in referrals, the number of complex cases has increased; for example young people presenting with significant associated difficulties, features of ASD and challenging social circumstances" (board meeting 2015)

BlackWaveComing · 12/12/2020 00:58

@StellaAndCrow

As mentioned above, from the board paper "21 Patient Story The board were visited at the start of their meeting by Ms E, her son F (12) and her daughter G (11); the children were both patients of the Trust. " A parent with two children being treated by the trust - hmmm, what's the chance of that?
Pretty high if it's social contagious. I've had two with ROGD - did not arise from me pushing genderism.
StellaAndCrow · 12/12/2020 00:59

You can just imagine the pressure from outside groups - I'd guess that the parent with two children in the service who visited the board might have been from this group.
"The appropriate management of Gender Dysphoria in children and adolescents is contentious and debated in the absence of an adequate evidence base. A currently small number of families, usually associated with a long standing parents support/pressure group, have been vociferous about their frustration with our protocol for physical intervention. Specifically, the time taken to complete a comprehensive assessment of Gender Dysphoria prior to referral for physical intervention is referred to as “a delay in treatment” and there is increasing pressure to offer cross sex hormones from the age of 14 years, rather than the current 16 years. Adult services continue to have long waiting lists, this creates problems for some older service users who are keen to move to adult services to pursue surgical interventions and places a strain on the GIDS resources, as until they are on a stable hormonal regimen it is not appropriate to discharge service users over 18 years old to their GP."

"The board were visited at the start of their meeting by Ms E, her son F (12) and her daughter G (11); the children were both patients of the Trust. The children explained something of their experience in coming to the Trust, and their experiences with the clinicians they had seen. The NEDs drew out some of the things they would like to see done differently, which included a Minecraft server for all the children at the Tavistock to use, and talked about how it was to leave school each week to come in for their appointments.
Ms E explained that she also received therapy from the Trust once a week, and it was a great space to talk about her children and other topics. She commented that you could feel isolated as a parent, and wondered if there was a way to raise the profile of the opportunities for joining groups. She commented that the second time they had been referred it had taken 3 months to be seen whilst the service lined up the best person, and whilst she understood the delay and had received an explanation in advance, some parents might find it helpful to have someone they could call in that situation. She noted that having the Trust liaise with the school was essential, and the Trust needed to be proactive in doing this.
Ms Greatley thanked all three for coming and sharing their experiences with the Trust."

HopeClearwater · 12/12/2020 00:59

A parent with two children being treated by the trust - hmmm, what's the chance of that?

Yes - what the hell’s going on there?! Her boy thinks he’s a girl and the girl thinks she’s a boy?

AnotherLass · 12/12/2020 02:05

So does anyone with legal knowledge know how this will affect the appeal? To my legally ignorant eye, it looks pretty damning. But I've heard something about how you can't introduce new evidence at the appeal stage. This would presumably be new evidence.

PlantMam · 12/12/2020 02:11

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/governance/board-of-directors/meetings/

Meeting minutes go back to 2011. I looked at the first few. Very dry, just budget stuff really. Bit about setting up the Leeds satellite.

Most recent one is a dead link, so I hopped to January 2020, which is when Keira Bell joined the legal case. Using the ‘find on page’ function it’s clear that there has been a LOT more discussion about GIDs in recent meetings than in 2011.

I’ve barely started looking at it but here is a snippet from January. Quarterly referrals are slightly down and there is speculation that the ‘peak’ is over. Does this mean they’ve been expecting a peak? Is that because Sweden haS a peak and then a massive fall?

As always, the more one reads about GIDs the more questions one has.

Tavistock puberty blocker study published
TheClitterati · 12/12/2020 02:20

@MsMarvellous

From the study conclusion: "We identified no changes in psychological function, quality of life or degree of gender dysphoria."

So treatment has no impact? Am I reading that right? If so, what is the justification for medicating children and preventing natural pubertal development?

Affirmation? Is this all part of it?

Yes you are trans, so here's some puberty blockers to prove it. Etc.

SophocIestheFox · 12/12/2020 06:15

[quote nauticant]Would you like to see an echo chamber?

Here you go:

twitter.com/MyWebDoctorUK/status/1337509321190625283[/quote]
Blimey.

If this is such an insignificant number of children, what, I wonder, in their view, would be a worrying number of children to sterilise because they don’t conform to sex role stereotypes? What would be the right amount of children to have their bones crumble in later life because their childhood distress manifested in this particular way at this particular time?

I’ve woken up thinking about this report this morning. It’s just so shocking, worse than I could have imagined, and I don’t think it’s going to change the believers minds at all.

sultanasofa · 12/12/2020 06:51

PaleBlueMoonlight and ChestnutStuffing

Regarding the lack of a control group, the manuscript contains the following explanation:

At the time, a randomised controlled study was not considered feasible due to very small numbers and inability to retain participants in the control arm, as the control treatment would have resulted in progression into near complete puberty and an increasing number of UK families were accessing mid-pubertal suppression internationally. Allocation blinding was also not considered feasible in young people using a product requiring monthly injections.

This suggests that the children/ their families were so desperate to stop further pubertal changes, that if they didn't receive blockers from GIDS, they would get them from abroad.

MsMarvellous · 12/12/2020 06:55

@sultanasofa jeez. So they allowed themselves to be steered by parents wishes rather than medical rigour?! That's astonishing.

Nomnomarrgh · 12/12/2020 07:06

All this research is making me shudder and think of that Nazi doctor.

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