Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock puberty blocker study published

393 replies

PaleBlueMoonlight · 11/12/2020 20:56

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55282113

Finds 43/44 (98%) progress from PBS to cross sex hormones

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
allmywhat · 13/12/2020 23:40

I don’t for one minute believe this is theoretical, I think they’re prospectively protecting themselves for a case they have who is probably 15-16 and doesn’t want CSH.

My interpretation of the motivations for that paper is even more cynical than yours but would get me deleted.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2020 00:07

Oh and Margaret McCartney wrote a piece for the BMJ a while back about how she saw there were problems over gender in healthcare which was pretty bloody influential and was at the start of the reverse in what was being said in medical circles. It was something of a game changer because of how respected she is on the subject of bias in medicine and research.

www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k1312 hope this link works - click on the article tab to read what she said as im not sure this link goes straight to it.

What she said in this article written in March 2018 was almost exactly what JKR was to later say (and it wouldn't surprise me at all if JKR is familiar with McCartney's work) but without the exercise in witchburning.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2020 00:08

From that bmj opinion piece:

We need better long term data, but research into rates of de-transition has been stymied by ethics committees apparently more concerned about controversy than helping people to make good decisions.

Isn't that just the truth?

ChattyLion · 14/12/2020 00:21

Thank you allmy.

MoleSmokes · 14/12/2020 06:06

There is a glaring omission in the failure of GIDS to utilise other, relevant specialist services provided by the Tavistock-Portman NHS Trust, eg. the ASD service:

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/care-and-treatment/our-clinical-services/lifespan/

I suspect that this is primarily due to the way the NHS has been operating since the “internal market” was established in the late 1980’s, with separate contracting arrangements for different services.

It would not be impossible for arrangements to be agreed but the days are long gone when clinicians could just decide that they needed to work with colleagues in a different specialty in the same organisation and just go ahead and set something up.

That sort of joint working would make a lot more sense than hiving off the “ASD issue” entirely to local CAMHS. Local support would still be needed for each child. However, that sort of joint working would go a long way to preventing a service like GIDS becoming so narrowly focussed that it fails to take a holistic approach to individual children.

I have had considerable experience managing a comparable NHS service, ie. in terms of specialisation, contracting and commissioning rather than clinical focus, and I am all too aware of the serious, systemic obstacles to joint working. However, I trawled through all the documentation, minutes of meetings, etc. on the NHS Specialist Commissioning website and I could not find anything suggesting that anyone had recognised that the high incidence of ASD needed addressing.

This is something that should also have been raised within the Tavistock-Portman at Board level.

These children have such complex needs. It is horrifying to read what has been pulled from the Board minutes above, that they were viewed simply as raw material to help advance the Trust’s ambitions internationally.

There is a huge difference between “NHS culture” at Board level and “at the coal face”. At Board level the imperatives are primarily financial and corporate reputation. GIDS is very significant in both respects to the Trust so it will go all out to protect the income stream. This, I suspect, accounts for its recent decision to discipline David Bell, who has been critical of GIDS, even though he is due to retire shortly. A very convenient scapegoat and/or smokescreen?

From what I have seen of GIDS management on TV (Polly Carmichael and Bernadette Wren) I do not have any sympathy for them as they seemed complacent to the point of callous. However, the Trust Board and ultimately the Commissioners at NHS England bear primary responsibility for the design, aims, ethos and quality of GIDS services and the impact on individual children.

The Commissioners are supported by an Advisory Panel that includes “trans advocates”. I understand that applications from other “stakeholders” who would have provided some balance, such as detransitioners, have been rejected. NHS England needs to address the ideological capture of its commissioning process as a matter of urgency. NHS Gender Identity Services are being transformed from clinical services for adults and children with gender dysphoria into “trans services”.

The Commissioners are currently pumping money into piloting new, out-sourced “trans services” for adults. The specifications read more like “advocacy and social hubs” than NHS services.

That money would be better spent IMHO on rendering GIDS fit for purpose and supporting the growing number of detransitioners.

The “trans community” persecutes detransitioners and the NHS has a poor track record of supporting patients it has damaged. There isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of the NHS even considering the needs of detransitioners as long the Specialist Commissioners remain guided by trans activists and representatives of organisations with a vested interest in disregarding the existence and needs of detransitioners.

The GIDS “research” is yet another example of sweeping detransitioners under the carpet. Their excuse for failing to follow-up patients once they transferred to adult services is frankly pathetic. Mind, since GIDS was incapable of maintaining adequate records and data while these children were under its care it is no wonder they had neither the imagination nor motivation to arrange follow-up.

After venting all that - the next question is, what would a good service for children look like?

As far as I am aware, but happy to be corrected, the best data on outcomes is still Zucker’s 30 years of using the “watchful waiting” approach in Canada that sifted out those children whose dysphoria resolved on reaching puberty. However, this was before the “ROGD phenomenon” and the massive surge in referrals of peri and post-pubertal girls.

Detransitioners have such a lot to teach researchers and clinicians to help them understand this phenomenon. Another very good reason for the NHS to stop pretending that they don’t exist.

Apart from the usual suspects, eg. response to sexual abuse and unwanted sexual attention, the role of gay (male) porn and autoandrophilia must be considered, just as much as it’s better documented male equivalent.

The pretence that gender identity is always irrelevant to sexuality has to be dropped. It is really unhelpful to carry on as if the internet had not been invented.

Children of both sexes are being influenced by porn, not just traumatising, violent porn but also idealised, aspirational “anime” porn (I can never remember the names of all the sub-types but clinical practitioners need to be up to date if they are going to be able to work with these children effectively!)

Detransitioners are more honest about these influences, which is probably why trans activists try to shut them up, getting their social media posts and videos deleted and their accounts banned.

If the Tavistock-Portman Trust really wanted to get ahead of the game and up its international reputation then it should appoint an expert in cult deprogramming as joint head of GIDS.

The Commissioners also need a rude awakening from the spell cast by the assorted Cross Dreamers and acolytes who have been advising them. Any improvements to GIDS will depend on the Commissioners agreeing to fund changes.

highame · 14/12/2020 06:59

Thanks for that Moles a really good view of the way forward.

I am very disappointed in general with our public services who seem to have forgotten such basic tenants as service (they are public servants) duty (they are public servants). I hope the government is doing a review on specialist organisations and their influence because it isn't just the NHS, though that can have worst consequences.

SophocIestheFox · 14/12/2020 07:59

Really interesting post, mole.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2020 08:11

The “trans community” persecutes detransitioners and the NHS has a poor track record of supporting patients it has damaged. There isn’t a cat in hell’s chance of the NHS even considering the needs of detransitioners as long the Specialist Commissioners remain guided by trans activists and representatives of organisations with a vested interest in disregarding the existence and needs of detransitioners.

There is the inevitable point that the. NHS cannot acknowledge the existence of detransistioners until they have been successfully sued for harm by one imo. To acknowledge their existence sooner is an admission they have done serious harm to a large number of children which has serious legal and financial ramifications. Even then i am not sure a service for detransistioners can be set up off the back of a single case of malpractice. I think it has to become apparent that the failure is systematic and widespread.

For the time being it serves the Tavistock and the NHS to try and paint Keira Bell as an outlier who is unrepresentative of girls who go through this service for that reason.

The High Court Ruling does signpost the way to it becoming apparent that systematic harm has been done as does this report. But it still needs to be followed through in someway. I think that probably has to be a review of some kind into the entire service. This isnt necessarily likely to be entirely forthcoming on in internal basis even with the high court ruling because of the issue of liability. If it is formally established that the Tavistock have been harming children without proper oversight then as Molesmokes points out there are some big scalps who are culpable. It also means that there is a huge bill to foot in terms of lawsuits AND it will affect the entire trust's medical liability insurance premiums.

The High Court Ruling and this report mean the problem absolutely isn't going away. Its going to sit there and fester for a while yet. But i also think there is also next to no incentive for the issue to be proactively deal with internally either. Dealing with it means the massive scandal breaks, the Trust's reputation is in tatters, there could be criminal proceedings brought against very senior figure at the trust and higher up the NHS foodchain for what amounts to corporate negligence. Thats pretty career ending (btw look out for big payoffs for early retirement etc).

For this reason i still think we are looking at needing a public inquiry before there is much chance of a detransistioners service. And for that you need sufficient public support for one and political willingness from government to set one up.

There possibly is enough political will as its helpful to the Tories side in the culture war and an effort to kill off social justice warrior influence however its still very firmly a scandal thats happened on the Tory's watch (and id actually be interested in how Jeremy Hunt sits with his opinion etc on this for that reason). Unfortunately i also think Matt Hancock is a little busy right now so it will sit on a back burner for that reason too.

I don't think the issue will go away though. Eventually there will be that inevitable court case that finally causes the house of cards to collapse. But i think we will have to go through the whole stinking slow process rather than there being any willingness to take responsibility sooner than is forced.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2020 08:41

As a bit of an aside I am currently pondering section 20 of the offenses against the person act.

Inflicting bodily injury, with or without weapon.
Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously wound or inflict any grievous bodily harm upon any other person, either with or without any weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable . . . to be kept in penal servitude.

My argument here is do you prove malicious intent if you demonstrate that anyone at the Tavistock prescribing puberty blockers was actively homophobic? Would puberty blockers count as an 'instrument'? I don't know the answer to these questions but the sheer weight of shit here does make me seriously wonder.

NotBadConsidering · 14/12/2020 09:00

For the time being it serves the Tavistock and the NHS to try and paint Keira Bell as an outlier who is unrepresentative of girls who go through this service for that reason.

There are two major flaws in the TRA rebuttal of this court case. This is the first one. It doesn’t actually matter that Keira regretted her treatment. She could have been completely happy with it. There are probably teenagers and people who will reach their 20s and older who will decide they are happy and will always be happy with their treatment. But it doesn’t matter because they couldn’t consent. Being happy in retrospect doesn’t negate this. Doctors know this. If a surgeon is performing a procedure and the incidentally find something else, unless it’s immediately life threatening, they need to wake the patient up and discuss it, even if they might be 100% convinced the patient would be happy for them to deal with it. Because there may be the very small chance the patient might not be happy. Maybe this chance is less than 1% Hmm. But they still need informed consent prospectively wherever possible.

The second major flaw is the insistence now that this proves they’re selecting the right kids from the start. This is in direct conflict with “it’s just a pause”. They can’t claim PBs to be “just a pause” if they’re now saying “these are the kids who we know for sure need the full monty”. Why do they need to “pause” kids and give them time to think if they’re so sure these are the ones who are absolutely positively 100% going to be trans adults regardless? It just makes no sense.

NeurotrashWarrior · 14/12/2020 09:28

Need to catch up ok thread; just seen this twitter thread about bone density from dr M Laidlaw in the US; points out that bone density should be increasing not being maintained.

I actually knew that from a nutrition course for primary school teachers I did about 15 years ago. They pointed out that free school milk was better given to teens for that very reason. And as pp have pointed out is a reason why anorexia is so bad for teens long term. So it's really not rocket science.

twitter.com/mlaidlawmd/status/1338242568446824448?s=21

NeurotrashWarrior · 14/12/2020 09:31

Great post Moles. I'd say as a part of that is the woeful and stereotyped understanding of ASD in mainstream schools too. You definitely have to have a joined up group of services to support yp with asd.

NeurotrashWarrior · 14/12/2020 09:35

Relevant screen shots.

(I'd like to know what the y axis is though.)

Tavistock puberty blocker study published
Tavistock puberty blocker study published
Tavistock puberty blocker study published
NeurotrashWarrior · 14/12/2020 09:38

Better one from Will Malone

And why in my 40s I'm frantically trying to do what I can for bone density now!

Tavistock puberty blocker study published
RedToothBrush · 14/12/2020 09:41

Notbadconsidering i agree with that however i still fear that there is a complete lack of leadership within the trust over this and there is still a complete state of denial at the trust over this. They want to appeal the decision and that says it all.

That's why i think that even after the high court ruling theres going to have to be more action to deal with the problem because it wont come from within and it will have to be forced.

boatyardblues · 14/12/2020 09:53

I’m still agog at the idea that you can be rejected by one ethics committee and shop around until you get a yes from another one (with potentially conflicted members). Surely that needs looking at too?

ItRubsTheLotionOnItsSkin · 14/12/2020 10:01

"They want to appeal the decision and that says it all"

Doesn't it just. Obviously threads like these are brilliant for "unpicking" all this and analysing and explaining everything properly and in detail, but what it comes down to on the most basic level is - a court has stated that certain medication/treatments currently being given to children should be re-examined and stopped for the present - the court has decided aren't suitable for children because these children cannot give full informed consent especially as these medications are experimental with no proper evidence base.

And their response is "no, we want to continue doing this".

It's (literally) indefensible.

ChattyLion · 14/12/2020 10:03

Thank you for all these thought-provoking posts.
Even if children’s services are allowed to be not joined up to adult services (which I assume is very poor practice) Surely there is some kind of precedent for adult service user groups to have to include those with a significant interest or experience in the service, including good and bad experiences, which in this case would include detransitioned people? Is this a case of detransitioned people having to organise to fight tor care appropriate to them?

In a medical setting surely it would not be appropriate to have a t actual influential advisors to medical services who are there in a purely political advocacy purpose who aren’t medically informed and maybe haven’t experienced the medical treatments provided by that type of service? Or who could be of the opposite biological sex to the majority of service users where sex is highly relevant? Or who could be of a substantially different age range to patients but without an obvious link to the patient group , ie they are not say a parent or carer to a child service user?
I just don’t understand how advocacy groups can advise but not detransitioned people?

Nhs constitution (I know..toothless..) does say: ‘You have the right to receive care and treatment that is appropriate to you, meets your needs and reflects your preferences.
You have the right to expect your NHS to assess the health requirements of your community and to commission and put in place the services to meet those needs as considered necessary, and in the case of public health services commissioned by local authorities, to take steps to improve the health of the local community.’

www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-nhs-constitution-for-england/the-nhs-constitution-for-england

StellaAndCrow · 14/12/2020 10:14

Does anyone know if there are any numbers available as to how many children GIDS have treated with puberty blockers? This study was done before the huge increase in referrals - have they continued collecting data?

NotBadConsidering · 14/12/2020 10:23

A BBC article in July last year had the number at 267.

www.bbc.com/news/health-49036145

Gids' data suggests that between 2012 and 2018, 267 people under the age of 15 started using the blockers.

So that’s up to 2018, highly likely to be over 309 now.

NotBadConsidering · 14/12/2020 10:25

Over 300* not 309, I’m not that accurate.

Not sure of source for that and it says “suggests”. Someone might have a source for more accurate numbers.

StellaAndCrow · 14/12/2020 10:29

It would be very interesting to see similar research done for subsequent cohorts, given that the study was done before the massive increase in referrals particularly of girls. Have they become less or more selective in who they give blockers to? How have the numbers of children treated with puberty blockers changed over recent years? Has anyone seen this data anywhere?

StellaAndCrow · 14/12/2020 10:40

Thanks very much NotBad

TheGreatWave · 14/12/2020 10:47

@ItRubsTheLotionOnItsSkin

"They want to appeal the decision and that says it all"

Doesn't it just. Obviously threads like these are brilliant for "unpicking" all this and analysing and explaining everything properly and in detail, but what it comes down to on the most basic level is - a court has stated that certain medication/treatments currently being given to children should be re-examined and stopped for the present - the court has decided aren't suitable for children because these children cannot give full informed consent especially as these medications are experimental with no proper evidence base.

And their response is "no, we want to continue doing this".

It's (literally) indefensible.

And having not initially provided any evidence, yet now they wish to appeal. I presume there was a certain amount of cockiness that they would win.
PlantMam · 14/12/2020 10:55

Re: detransitioners and potential for medical negligence claims

Summary of Bell V Tavistock written by Susanna Bennett of 1 Chancery Lane Chambers.

Scroll down for opinion on possible legal action.

archive.md/aPY7T

(Archive link because the Lexology.com site asks you to sign up before viewing if you visit more than a couple of times)

Bennett’s work page: 1chancerylane.com/barristers-staff/susanna-bennett/

1chancerylane.com/

1 Chancery Lane is a set of leading barristers offering specialist advocacy and advice in the fields of Complex Personal Injury; Public Authority Liability; Travel & Cross Border Claims; Medical Law; Property, Chancery & Commercial; and Professional Liability. With a recognised specialism in acting for clients in the police, insurance, travel and professional services sectors, as well as more widely across local & public authorities and the healthcare, education, manufacturing, property, construction and consumer sectors, 1 Chancery Lane, combines a modern approach to legal excellence with a commitment to delivering the highest levels of client service.

Swipe left for the next trending thread