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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Law Commission Reviewing Hate Crime Law - Sex or Gender?

33 replies

gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 12:40

hi all, I could have sworn that there was a thread on this already with lots of useful points but can't find it atm - either my search skills or deleted?

Anyway, the Law Commission are consulting on this (I'm so sure there is a thread - can anyone point me to it please) and are considering putting Gender in place of Sex. Apparently they note that the public want Sex not Gender and that it has been strongly argued that violence against women and girls is strongly connected to the biology (no shit) BUT.....

the provisional view is that Gender is the 'more inclusive term'. They also note elsewhere that transwomen face unique transphobic discrimination. If that is the case, why can't women face unique misogynistic discrimination?

I remember one of the points on the old thread being that transwomen can face violence as would be directed at women but it is only because they resemble a woman and not actually because of their sex. It would be interesting to get some more thoughts on how using Gender instead of Sex will disadvantage women in this matter - can any of you amazing thinkers help please? I'm at the point where I know it feels very wrong but can't articulate why.

consult.justice.gov.uk/law-commission/hate-crime/

OP posts:
Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 12:45

although tbf - I don't suppose it will make much difference either way - I have lost a bit of faith in the police and their willingness to protect women - if they can't prosecute rapists, a bit of hate crime isn't going to touch the sides. Maybe we could start a successful Women's Lives Matter campaign??

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Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 12:46

and apparently they are going to expand the Transgender category to include Non binary, Cross dressing and Intersex and possibly Asexual.... Hmm

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YouNoob · 11/12/2020 12:51

@gardenbird48

and apparently they are going to expand the Transgender category to include Non binary, Cross dressing and Intersex and possibly Asexual.... Hmm

What about furries, demis, two spirits, gender fluid, trisexuals, pansexuals etc etc etc?

Surely, they are being transphobic by not including these gender identities?

YouNoob · 11/12/2020 12:52

(I apologise for not being helpful.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 12:54

How is asexual transgender?

NoCureForLove · 11/12/2020 12:55

Gardenbird I agree with what you said re of rapists aren't held to account a bit if hate crime us unlikely to be different... But the recording of non crime hate incidents is being used to target gender criticsl women in a frightening way. Have a look at the indomitable Spero's threads on the subject.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 12:56

the provisional view is that Gender is the 'more inclusive term'. They also note elsewhere that transwomen face unique transphobic discrimination. If that is the case, why can't women face unique misogynistic discrimination?

We can cite the Scottish government decision yesterday that gender is not the most appropriate term for sex-based rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 12:58

Link to thread about sex v gender in the Forensic Medicine Bill which was debated and amended yesterday.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4098732-Urgent-action-for-those-in-Scotland

BewaretheIckabog · 11/12/2020 13:03

Gender may be the more inclusive view but gender and sex are not the same thing.

If inclusivity is what is wanted perhaps they should just include men who identify as men too.

This is not about inclusivity.

Imnobody4 · 11/12/2020 13:04

There is no legal definition of gender, it is a disputed term. You don't change laws from clarity to ambiguity, it should be the other way round.

Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 13:05

@YouNoob

(I apologise for not being helpful.)
it did make me laugh though - I quite fancy Tetrisgender for now Grin

sadly myumbrella, a trans organisation advocating for the 371 lesser known genders and furries took down their helpful list so I've got no idea what I want to be when I grow up :¬))

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YouNoob · 11/12/2020 13:12

Let's not forget otherkin...

OhHolyJesus · 11/12/2020 13:13

We need a resources thread with all previous threads linked and thoughts on how to respond, or points to note in submission to the consultation. This was done for the GRA and Surrogacy consultations. I think we could build it up on this thread?

I have brief notes from yesterday's webinar to type up and share and I will do so over the weekend.

Once I have read the guidance docs I will share further thoughts. I imagine there will be lost of traps in language to fall into.

If anyone has a special interest in this and wants to do something off the boards please DM me.

nauticant · 11/12/2020 13:18

How is asexual transgender?

Asexuality isn't even asexual!

www.uis.edu/gendersexualitystudentservices/students/a-guide-to-asexuality/

Asexuality is not a synonym for celibacy. (There are celibate aces and promiscuous aces and aces everywhere in between.)

Imnobody4 · 11/12/2020 13:22

I discovered a new gender the other day 'circumgender', going round in bloody circles presumably.

YouNoob · 11/12/2020 13:23

This might be helpful:

www.citizensuk.org/misogyny-hate-crime-report-launch

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 13:29

There is no legal definition of gender, it is a disputed term. You don't change laws from clarity to ambiguity, it should be the other way round.

I completely agree. Gender does also mean personal identity labels like the myumbrella list mentioned. And this is how we should attack it. It's too vague, inconsistent and ambiguous as a quasi legal term to provide three separate protected characteristics with the necessary legal protection and support their individual needs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 13:30

And that's what any legal challenges should make clear.

Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 17:25

Thanks all - I think that is the response.

The legal status of the word - it is not a widely understood term, many people don't believe in the concept of 'gender' (other than as a grammatical device) - my lovely m-i-l wouldn't have the first idea of what I was talking about if I mentioned it.

In a normal world, they wouldn't even be asking this question would they? Shall we include a word in our definition that has no universal meaning and has never been legally defined....??

When we were involved with some legal stuff, literally (sorry for that overused word) everything in the contracts and communications was clearly and explicitly defined (I think we had a little list for some things) - that is how law works.

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Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 17:27

I like the idea of a resource thread - is there any special status for setting one up or is it just a named normal thread?

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allmywhat · 11/12/2020 17:35

Shouldn't it be pointed out that domestic violence tends to begin when a woman is pregnant? I don't see how you could be aware of even basic facts about misogynistic violence directed against women and not understand that sex not gender is what matters, but... here we are.

lionheart · 11/12/2020 18:18

Filled it in -- as much as I was able and included definitions taken from Stonewall to underline the point about what trans and non-binary mean ...

BettyFilous · 11/12/2020 20:30

@nauticant

How is asexual transgender?

Asexuality isn't even asexual!

www.uis.edu/gendersexualitystudentservices/students/a-guide-to-asexuality/

Asexuality is not a synonym for celibacy. (There are celibate aces and promiscuous aces and aces everywhere in between.)

Say what?
Original poster
gardenbird48 · 11/12/2020 20:49

@nauticant

How is asexual transgender?

Asexuality isn't even asexual!

www.uis.edu/gendersexualitystudentservices/students/a-guide-to-asexuality/

Asexuality is not a synonym for celibacy. (There are celibate aces and promiscuous aces and aces everywhere in between.)

I sooo don't get this (two sherries and two wines down is not helping). How can you be a promiscuous asexual?? Does that mean you just go off and have sex with people who make the decision that you are going to have sex with them rather than being sexually attracted to them yourself and participating in the decision to have sex?? I'm confused.

Along with a sexual orientation, people have what’s called a romantic or affectional orientation that describes who that person might be romantically attracted to. In many people, the sexual and romantic orientations are aligned, so people tend not to think about them being separate concepts. It is not uncommon for asexuals to experience romantic attraction.

I note in this description that, similarly to the moves to create separate concepts of Sex and Gender, there is an effort to separate the concept of Sexual Orientation from 'Romantic' attraction (described as orientation) - I have no idea how this plays out in real life (if it actually does) but it interesting that this could be another point of breaking down what we would normally expect to all be incorporated into a loving adult relationship.

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