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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Law Commission Q&A on reforming hate crime laws: 10 Dec, 14:00 – 15:30 GMT

16 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 05/12/2020 09:39

Worth attending this before the consultation.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/law-commission-qa-on-reforming-hate-crime-laws-tickets-129714181609

The Law Commission is hosting a live event, to answer questions about the reforms to hate crime laws that we provisionally propose in Hate Crime Laws: A Consultation Paper. The event is open to all members of the public who are interested in this area of law, and have questions surrounding our reform proposals.

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Signalbox · 05/12/2020 11:27

That'll be interesting thanks for posting.

NonnyMouse1337 · 06/12/2020 10:43

Bump!

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testing987654321 · 06/12/2020 10:55

Will it be recorded to view later? If not it would be good if an attendee could post up some key points. The documentation is so dense for this consultation! The easy read summary is still 56 pages long!

OhHolyJesus · 06/12/2020 11:11

I'm going to most of it. Shall I share notes?

NonnyMouse1337 · 06/12/2020 12:03

No idea if it will be recorded for later. It would be great if you were able to post notes OHJ.
I'm going to try and attend too. Depends on work though.

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testing987654321 · 06/12/2020 13:24

That would be fantastic OHJ.

NonnyMouse1337 · 07/12/2020 15:15

Bump. Xmas Smile

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FeedTheSparrows · 07/12/2020 22:32

@OhHolyJesus

I'm going to most of it. Shall I share notes?
Please do! Esp if it will help others make a submission. I think we need to spread the word on this and get as many GC women as possible to send their comments in.
NonnyMouse1337 · 08/12/2020 19:03

Bump!

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OhHolyJesus · 08/12/2020 19:19

I can do the first 45 mins so if anyone else can cover what I miss that would be great.

Where is Pencils in Space when you need her? 😆

NonnyMouse1337 · 09/12/2020 17:03

This is tomorrow!

OHJ I will try to attend it as well and cover the other part.

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OhHolyJesus · 09/12/2020 22:40

Cheers Nonny I know a few who are going so could gather the jist of things together somehow x

OhHolyJesus · 10/12/2020 13:59

Anyone else not get the Microsoft teams link? I can't join.

OhHolyJesus · 10/12/2020 14:46

Missed the first 15 mins due to tech hitch now need to go for the school run. I got up to the bit on age if anyone else has notes from there on please share here x

OhHolyJesus · 12/12/2020 21:58

Hate Crime Webinar –Thurs 10th December - Part 1

(I missed the first 15 due to tech glitch but picked it up towards the end of the Q&S with Law – it is not ver batim but I think I captured the jist of things…)

Commissioner Penny Lewis

On the area of ‘stirring up hatred’
“If sex or gender would be added it would be added across the board”

Q Could maximum sentences could go beyond max (if aggravated crime)
A no (there was a longer answer but I didn’t catch it)

Q Why not parity already? Why focus on certain characteristics?
A I could give a complex historical answer…there has been piece meal law reform, for instance as characteristics were added, in a way it was easier to add them, rather than create new aggravated offences. There have been concerns over freedom of expression.

Q There are only 5 characteristics but there are 9 in the Equality Act
A For the purposes of hate crime law are not in equality act. There is an Anti discrimination context – criminal law not civil law, multiple statues. The EA2010 protects sex but doesn’t protect gender.

Q Who decides the characteristics? Gender reassignment but hate crime used transgender identity which is broad, can a characteristic defined in hate crime conflict with equality law?
A There is not a hierarchy, one set is for one set purposes such as anti-discrimination and another set for a hate crime purpose.

Q Can a characteristic in hate crime contravene the Equality Act?
A I don’t think that would be possible as the context is different but the question is whether the way a characteristic is defined could be challenged and I think that could be possible of course. Both Parliament and the Law Commission would aim to ensure that any recommendations that we would make, any statues Parliament would pass, would be consistent with Human Rights Act and the EU Convention of Human Rights way in which a potential challenge could be brought. We make recommendations about adding or not adding and ultimately they are recommendations (to Parliament) and they will not be enacted unless Parliament decides to enact them.

OhHolyJesus · 12/12/2020 22:29

Martin Wimpole - Sex or gender - Part 2

We are looking at whether hatred based on sex or gender or old age – whether they should be added. Obviously this is very challenging, there is a very wide variety of views what type characteristics should be included. The research and the initial consultation response gave us 3 main criteria to assess whether to add a characteristic:

  1. Demonstrable need – the overall number of cases in number and intensity or targeting of that group
  2. Seriousness - forms of violence and additional harm – does this group experience over and above other members of the community, is there fear and anxiety
  3. Damage to society more widely - whether the method of hate crime laws is the best way to identify a unintended negative consequence

Sex or Gender? We assessed evidence of Demonstrable Need. Women experience domestic and sexual abuse and online abuse. Men more likely to be perpetrator statistically speaking. Additional Harm - targeting women based on sex or gender, the female sex should be used. There were other views this that this would be counter-productive and in law we strive for equality of treatment across men or women. Strong views sex/gender would be apply as the terminology is sex in EA so we asked further questions…

Q&A

Q Why do you want to confuse sex and gender – sex is female of any age, gender is completely separate, you must resists this nonsense. Gender more like xenophobia.
A We recognise strong views in both sides.

Q If sex is chosen as the wording – if sex will this include intersex?
A This characteristic is where chromosomes are not male or female, we have asked if they should be given explicit protection as a separate category, like the approach in Scotland on hate crime (variations of sex characteristics) or under the inclusion for sex and we are looking to find more responses to that.

Q If gender is chosen will this include transgender as broader category?
A We have proposed a …. We consider what would be the way, the group that would be the category under which hatred to towards someone who is trans under criminal law. If hatred is caused towards them or if a person was, on the basis of presenting as male or female it could be as gender, however we do not want to lose the ability to record or understand…we do not want to lose the category or trans.

(garbled answer, not just my note taking - I invite further clarity from others who might have attended and heard the response to that question.)

So we do not want to confuse sex or gender – is it not the same – this is a really difficult question. In the paper we use ‘assigned at birth’ as the biological aspect of individual anatomy, chromosomes, hormone and interactions. Gender may not match their sex they are assign at birth and is social behaviours of masculine and feminine. This is a very contested area, what it means by sex and gender, but in simplified terms sex is biological characteristics, male/female and gender is a term used to describe social constructions.

Q Will business need to be handling misogynistic hate crime?
A There is no specific obligation on businesses for reporting, it is like any other crime.

Q If sex/domestic abuse is carved out of hate crime what kind of offences would be included?
A All other criminal offences remain, most likely would be public order, harassment, online abuse and also assault can occur under domestic abuse.

(not sure if this was a Q or a quote from Wimpole - again I invite further notes)

Men and boys can be victims of domestic abuse too and genital mutilation….(missed a bit – bloody phone rang) only protects women and makes men second class, we will be taking on very carefully minority of victims, particularly stereotypes and myths that act as an inhibiter.

(missed a bit again – doorbell!)

Q Why would you include sexual offences and domestic abuse when you have identified concerns around victims
A This is not the case the broader point was not opportunity to provide symbolic power about these offences, not the case that all sexual offences become a hate crime it would require additional proof, crime would need to be aggravated and this may not be possible due to evidential concerns. We do not want to create unhelpful hierarchies explicitly misogyny. This is a complicated question, I am not sure we done it justice here, it is covered in the papers and welcome further views.

Martin hands back over to Penny to continue - moves onto ageism.

I hope that's a bit useful, sorry I was distracted towards the end, I left it at the point they discussed age as I had to do the school run.

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