Whittle, the law professor, misinterprets the Bell ruling

[Clymene]

Surely whittle must know the law? I find this a bit confusing - either Stephen is deliberately misinterpreting the judgment or doesn't understand it. I'm not sure which is worse.

It would probably require a court order to force non emergency treatment on a competent non consenting child, against their will.

Sorry, I missed the bit there about "competent" - even a court order would only work if the court found the child to be non-competent.

A competent adult or child cannot be forced to undergo any medical procedure against their will

@teawamutu

I remember reading a couple of stories about 'trans kids' where the male-born child in question is quite convinced they'll be 'a real girl' and able to have babies one day.

Did think wtf the parents are thinking to set them up for such a realisation later on.

I could be wrong, but I heard there was a scene in I Am Jazz where the mother says to Jazz 'wait until you get your period'.

It's possible that such a thing was said in jest, but it's also possible that even some adults are rather sketchy on what 'gender confirmation' surgery can actually achieve.

Given that GIDS have stated very clearly, and the judgment acknowledges, that they would never prescribe without the child's consent, Whittle's statement seems utterly baffling.

So either he hasn't read the judgment or he's implying a private provider might prescribe to a non-competent child on the basis of parental consent. I can't see the legal action that would follow that decision ending well for the practitioner...

The tweets are bizarre, quite frankly.

Seemed to originally be suggesting that GIDS may have told the judge they don't accept parental consent as a way of 'keeping the back door open', (creating a loophole?) but having now read the NHS England statement has realised what a monumental pillock he's been.

www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Amendment-to-Gender-Identity-Development-Service-Specification-for-Children-and-Adolescents.pdf

Black and white there. No referrals to endocrinology clinics without a court order. Maybe these professionals should do their reading properly before spewing shite on Twitter.

My understanding is that Gillick competence is about competence to both consent to, & refuse, medical treatment. So if parents can consent to hormone treatment where a child doesn’t have Gillick competence, they would presumably be able to consent even where the child is actively refusing treatment (on the basis that the refusal by the non-Gillick competent child is ineffective).

Is this really what Whittle wants? For parents to be able to force hormone treatment on non-Gillick competent children who refuse it? Because I think that’s where his argument (if it can be dignified by that term) ultimately leads.

@nickymanchester

It would probably require a court order to force non emergency treatment on a competent non consenting child, against their will.

Sorry, I missed the bit there about "competent" - even a court order would only work if the court found the child to be non-competent.

A competent adult or child cannot be forced to undergo any medical procedure against their will

Incorrect, legally they can.

The instances where it has happened are startlingly rare however.

www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-guidance-for-doctors/0-18-years/making-decisions

Sorry, to clarify a competent child can be compelled to undergo treatment against their will, a competent adult cannot

@teawamutu

I remember reading a couple of stories about 'trans kids' where the male-born child in question is quite convinced they'll be 'a real girl' and able to have babies one day.

Did think wtf the parents are thinking to set them up for such a realisation later on.

I think a few adults believe this will be possible in the future too.

@RozWatching was that the one with sturdy pyjamas.

I watched SG’s TED talk again today.

Child: ‘When can I have the operation that will make me a girl?’

SG: ‘Not until you are grown up’

This is another part of the problem, children are growing up believing the operation will make them the other sex. Children do not understand they can have operations which will make their physical characteristics more like those of the other sex but cannot miraculously make them in to the other sex.

Whittle appears to have many different personas. My 'favourite' is the one who came on here to argue that mixed sex accommodation on Girlguiding trips is not a problem as long as emergency contraception is available...

I think that was this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

I don't think Whittle was the person who talked about sturdy pyjamas. I think that was someone who was trying to persuade us that such items were adequate protection against being raped

That tweet.

Why, why are people telling their kids they can have things like blockers, and treatment fir the "right puberty" its impossible ffs. Why are the kids so informed about it all. Conversations at 8 revolve around breakfast cereal and the dog, not puberty blockers and how wrong your body is.

The anguish anxiety and panic is coming from false promises and parents going on ajd on about how marginalised and suicidal they are/will be. Not from what should be standard safeguarding and good practice...

It appears that parents have stopped being parents?????

And I cannot comprehend how adults who presumably do have full sexual function - parents, doctors - can knowingly and deliberately deny that whole side of life to children who don't grasp what they're missing out on

Because they’re looking at their 11 year old, still a little boy or girl, and seeing the child they are, not the adult they will be.

How many of us really think, or want to think, of our small child’s future sexual pleasure? The mind just naturally balks at it.

@DodoPatrol

And I cannot comprehend how adults who presumably do have full sexual function - parents, doctors - can knowingly and deliberately deny that whole side of life to children who don't grasp what they're missing out on

Because they’re looking at their 11 year old, still a little boy or girl, and seeing the child they are, not the adult they will be.

How many of us really think, or want to think, of our small child’s future sexual pleasure? The mind just naturally balks at it.

Yes. And some of the psychologists supporting these children should be asking hard questions of their parents, particularly the ones who transition early.

twitter.com/mattwalshblog/status/1330993394118782978?s=21

This is Avery Jackson, cover star of the National Geographic, talking about how his mum exploiting him has ruined his life.

averyjackson.rocks/ These parents are grifters

@FixTheBone

Sorry, to clarify a competent child can be compelled to undergo treatment against their will, a competent adult cannot

@FixTheBone

Thanks for the links explaining that

Christ, that kid says they don't want any more to do with this. And is busy shredding a tissue into tony pieces, which, at least to me, looks like a sign of major anxiety.

And they're still filming. For a documentary?

Jesus wept.

*tiny pieces

That clip

I want to shake those parents.

They have given that child no way back.

Here's a trailer for the documentary. Avery was 5 when his parents socially transitioned him. FIVE.

www.hbo.com/documentaries/transhood

Let's face it, Jazz Jennings has left a vacuum and there are families out there clamouring to be the next tv series. Given every person in the family gets a fee for each episode they appear in, it's estimated that Jazz's transition has made them between $5-10 million.

And weird that, despite the accusations that the GC Movement is funded by shady US evangelists, many of these parents seem to come from very religious backgrounds where homosexuality is deeply frowned up.

And weird that, despite the accusations that the GC Movement is funded by shady US evangelists, many of these parents seem to come from very religious backgrounds where homosexuality is deeply frowned up.

Article about Avery's mother Debi.

www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/relationships/why-this-mom-supports-her-trans-teen-advocating-for-her-community-on-her-own-terms/ar-BB1bk9ax

Despite growing up as a conservative Southern Baptist in Alabama, Debi quickly threw herself into trans advocacy

I see that in that photo that Avery has started to grow breasts so I guess they're already on oestrogen.