Excellent: Janice Turner on Keira

[notassigned]

here

Thanks OP, looks good... any chance you might have a sharetoken?

I have one:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/994f7e22-33ec-11eb-a008-76ae1654e866?shareToken=ea85206cc4756ed1823b7aa014bd5094

Here's the main article from the Times too,

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/landmark-ruling-makes-it-harder-for-children-to-get-sex-change-drugs-8830h3hnc?shareToken=94adea4d0777840f154b8c699b3e4a74

And a leading article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-keira-bell-case-fine-judgment-8v5vvwnwm?shareToken=ab5d1f72e6045f6b05c426ba26ddbd92

Excellent articles from The Times, thanks very much for the share tokens Errol.

and rogdmum

The comments (on both articles) are excellent too, very informative and some of them very moving.

If you have the Times Radio app there's a new podcast today about this. I'm listening at the moment, so far so sensible.

I will read the article later, thanks for sharing. I listened to the podcast earlier and one thing I found interesting was I wondered why the mother of the transitioned person spoke rather than them speaking for themselves as it sounds like they are now an adult.

The Times have pursued this issue consistently and have produced some excellent investigative journalism. The comments under the articles are great.

does anyone have access to the full judgment?

Found it.

god practically every line of that article is
quotable

I will always be a woman whatever changes in my body. I was invested in a fantasy.

Finally, “sick of being a medical experiment”, she stopped taking testosterone

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1333742647962382338?s=08

Here's the judgement

@rogdmum @ErrolTheDragon thanks so much for the share tokens!

what time was the issue discussed on Times Radio please?

The comments are very good too, intelligent and thoughtful. The comparison with other brutal medical treatments is shocking to read but pertinent.

That is an excellent article. And yes, the comments just hammer it all home. Children are transitioning because they are not allowed to be gay, or gender nonconforming. It's not just sexist, regressive and restrictive, it's mind blowingly unethical to use such extreme measures to address what is basically rank sexism.

Everyone is now talking about 'trans' children, why they want to change, who is advising them, where it's all coming from. I'm strongly reminded of the attempts to talk here about Jazz Jennings, and how they were often shutdown. I'm not blaming HQ, they had to be reported to be deleted.

The lid is well and truly off.

Yes, the question is why did no one tell teenaged Keira that being a lesbian is fine, that being a girl who doesn't want to look feminine is fine, that being a girl who doesn't want to play football is fine?

because they don't believe it. The absolute sexism of the people involved in what happened to Keira just shines through. they didn't tell her it's OK to be a gender non confirming girl, because they don't believe it is OK.

I've typed and deleted several swear words while writing the above. But actually it doesn't need it, does it?

members of the medical community permanently damaged the body of a teenaged girl because she wasn't behaving how they think teenaged girls should behave

Keira Bell also a guest on the Feminist Current podcast this week, although interview was recorded a few days before the verdict. Haven’t listened yet.

because they don't believe it.

And they've gone into schools, colleges, universities, government departments, police forces, everywhere, to try and convince other people not to believe it, either.

When the government said do not associate with organisations that rely on stereotypes, this is exactly what they mean. They need to go further, though.

It's not enough. Because the ideology is embedded in so many places.

Here's the main article from the Times too,

Wow, that is very strongly worded. Justifiably so! It's a refreshing change. Usually news articles that touch on this subject are mealy-mouthed and indirect, even when the content they are reporting is absolutely damning. I'm heartened to see such straightforward reporting of the facts.

I’m very glad to read this judgement. There are a number of issues that can cause children to feel like they don’t fit in; being trans is not the only explanation.

I know one particular young person who was about 13 when they decided to transition after losing their father in a tragic accident. They were previously a female lesbian but shortly after the accident they decided they were a heterosexual male. They took their father’s name and started wearing his old clothes. As their body changed due to taking hormones, they would constantly compare themselves to him, and expressed pleasure when anyone said how much they looked like him. Clearly grief was having an effect upon their decision to transition, but the NHS never dealt with this possibility, just supported them in transitioning. Under this new ruling the likelihood is that this person would have received grief counselling and other types of support instead of being encouraged to transition.

Thanks for sharing those articles.

The specifics of Keira Bell's case are heartbreaking.

I read (most of) the judgement.

How the Tavistock was actually being run in terms of things like tracking data on patients in order to be able to assess outcomes struck me as shocking. I suspect how little they actually knew about what they were doing didn't help them here. It was mind-blowing and regardless of the moral and ethical issues around this (and I am not minimising those at all) the fact that people were afraid to speak out on the operational weaknesses alone is absolutely terrifying to me.

Unless I am reading this wrong. Did anyone else have his reaction or is it just me?