Times: Transman minister reports fellow clergyman for hate crime as they said that a relationship between a woman and a Transman was a same sex relationship

[334bu]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-investigate-alleged-hate-against-trans-clergy-qsqfrhskd?shareToken=f6674117c86e923858da90ebb3baa616

Rather odd article as there is certainly an element of homophobia in clergyman reported as they think homosexuality is wrong. However, that is not what they are being accused of. They are accused of making this Transman feel unsafe because they are not acknowledging that they have changed sex.

They haven’t changed sex. You can’t.

Give me an hour or two while I work out exactly what is going on

Tbf all minister requested was that the homophobe remove the references to them personally which I think is fair enough.

Sounds like the most unholy mixture of homophobia, transphobia and also religious intolerance on the part of the complainant (while the complaint was re a CofE video, the minister is in the URC which has a long history of being more equalist than most other denominations).

describing the marriage of anyone other than two heterosexuals as the result of “evil and wickedness”. sounds pretty bloody hateful to me. If 'hate speech' has to be a thing then this qualifies more than many other examples.

Whether you agree with trans ideology or not, the comments were certainly hateful, homophobic, transphobic and the trans person for their personal details removed is entirely reasonable.

So these two people have different ideological / religious view points.

The first makes a video sharing his views.

The second makes a video sharing his view and NOT mentioning anyone personally. In fact his comments are targeting the policies of an organisation.

Yet the first man wants the second to take down his video, while he gets to keep his up. Because

“I felt that [his comments] were leading to personal harm to myself, my wife, and the others in the video. It feels as if he is denying LGBT people the right to be involved in Christian worship. It describes me and my wife as being in a same-sex marriage, which isn’t true. It made me feel very unsafe.”

If you take away the religious aspect, this all seems very familiar .....

Alex Clare-Young, Ben John and Andrea Williams make me feel unsafe. Should I report them all to the police?

Ben John's freedom of speech to say homosexuality is wrong is also my freedom of speech to say that homosexuality is just fine, actually.

describing the marriage of anyone other than two heterosexuals as the result of “evil and wickedness”. sounds pretty bloody hateful to me. If 'hate speech' has to be a thing then this qualifies more than many other examples.

I agree and I'm not defending him, but this is a not uncommon religious view and not just among Christians. Are they often prosecuted for it?

I broadly agree that the FTM trans person was reasonable in asking for a video about themselves to be edited. But there are free speech concerns there as well.

I don't agree that this guy's comments about the falseness of transgender ideology were hate speech. I don't agree that making a critical video about gender identity ideology, responding to another video which promotes that ideology, is hate speech. I think it's far too easy for people with certain protected characteristics (not non trans women, obviously) to weaponise "hate crime" and "feeling unsafe" because someone doesn't agree with you and you are offended by that.

But the transman is in a same sex marriage (unless married to a transwoman)?

Yes.

But it's apparently us conflating sex/gender? Righto.

Personal views on this aside, I have to question the wisdom in how the C of E has gone about tackling a controversial and divisive subject within the church. Publishing literature with associated videos, promoting a particular stance on the issue and featuring particular LGBTQ members of clergy without a counterbalance, was a bit naive. Whether they think they can gently hand wave away any controversy or counter argument (similar with the ordination of women 20-30 years ago, which still has pockets of resistance in parts of the church which the C of E presumably is hoping will die out when the fogeys go). Bearing in mind that although the comments of the evangelical pastor about homosexuality may sound shocking and offensive to many, it does have Biblical basis depending on interpretation and isn’t a view unique to him. In terms of the same-sex relationship, that all depends on whether someone believes TMAM and many people of faith and none struggle with that one.

To open up a theological debate then go running to the police when someone raises a contrary theological argument does open up a whole can of worms for freedom of speech and religious freedom in this country. If the C of E does want to pick a party line and exclude other arms of the church or interpretations of the Bible, then it must be prepared to do so, you can’t claim to be a broad church, then phone the police when someone doesn’t toe the line. It also seems that these issues can’t be discussed at a theoretical level without real feelings getting hurt which is very difficult when it comes to loving thy neighbour.

And I would agree that claiming to feel “unsafe” has become a shut down strategy which prevents any respectful debate on such matters.

Yes really confusing. Accused clergyman certainly holds very conservative religious views on same sex relationships but then again is the Transman not equally being homophobic by denying the reality of their same sex relationship and reporting the other clergyman for hate on that issue?

Great post, Canwecancel2020

What does 'feeling unsafe' mean?

The church (well religion in general) has a long history of homophobia. It's surely not a surprise that there are some theologians who still believe that?

Truly confusing story. Surely homophobic mans religious views are a protected characteristic though?

It also seems that these issues can’t be discussed at a theoretical level without real feelings getting hurt which is very difficult when it comes to loving thy neighbour.

Loving your neighbour does not mean not hurting their feelings, affirming them, or just agreeing with them. This is a conflict between two Christians rather than a Christian and a non-Christian and that makes an important difference. They are holding each other up to standards which they feel are important part of their beliefs and this is necessary to be loving. Afterall they will be judged by God. It is not a theoretical argument but a theological one.

A theological argument involving the police??

I’m just waiting for a catholic priest to get involved and damn them both (raised in Ireland. Not a fan of organized religions).

@Clymene

What does 'feeling unsafe' mean?

The church (well religion in general) has a long history of homophobia. It's surely not a surprise that there are some theologians who still believe that?

“Feeling unsafe “ in this context means “ Someone has said something I disagree with , which shouldn’t be allowed. Freedom of speech, belief and religion is only for people who agree with me”.

I think that the comments were bigoted but also totally in line with what you’d expect from an evangelical Christian. They’re not generally big fans of gay clergy or women clergy so it’s not that surprising to find they’re not happy with transgender clergy.

’The evangelical describing the marriage of anyone other than two heterosexuals as the result of “evil and wickedness”

That’s blatant bigotry. I also wouldn’t rule out my (former) marriage being a direct result of evil and wickedness and it was heterosexual.

The stuff that really gets to me is this.

‘I felt that [his comments] were leading to personal harm to myself, my wife, and the others in the video.’
‘It made me feel very unsafe.’

Be angry, be upset, be disappointed, be unsurprised by the comments given the source. I’d say any or all of those reactions would be justified. Don’t treat words as actual violence or throw around ‘made me feel unsafe’ when what you mean is ‘made me feel upset.’

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000pvcd

Discussion on this at 27.15

The funniest thing about this is how the C of E simultaneously thinks homosexual marriage is BAD and that it is fine for two women to be married as long as one of them claims to be a man.

The Church of England must eventually just dwindle out. They are a smaller and smaller group of people who have very few shared beliefs.

It is not just evangelical christians who believe marriage is solely between a man and a woman: conservative Christians do too. As do many in ither religions.