Women's and girls' clothes (not very profound...)

[NoMoreKitKats]

This is probably a bit superficial and naive (because it clearly doesn't really signal meaningful change), but I can't help feeling heartened by recent changes in girls'/women's fashion.

My DDs are watching Sister Sister from Netflix (90s sitcom, in case you don't know it), and love the clothes. They're baggy and - compared to what we've seen in the last two decades - relatively unsexualised. I grew up in the 90s, wearing combat trousers and big shirts. Wearing clothes to attract boys really wasn't much on my radar till I was in my late teens, and I experienced RELATIVELY little harassment, and I wonder whether fashions during my mid teen years had a part to play in this. Am I silly to hope that if fashions and harassment are to some extent linked, some positive change may be afoot?

90s fashions are definitely back in and the oversized, normcore, unisex look that was in at the time.

Unfortunately, this is now in a world in which rape is virtually decriminalised in the UK and the porn culture is dark and misogynistic and hating of women on a scale never seen in our youth and at the click of a button on a handheld device.

Unfortunately, this is now in a world in which rape is virtually decriminalised in the UK and the porn culture is dark and misogynistic and hating of women on a scale never seen in our youth and at the click of a button on a handheld device.

Yes, @Gwynfluff, you're right. I'm clutching at straws really, as it seems such a dark time to be raising daughters (and sons, actually).

Or maybe to look at it the other way round, a change in fashion might be driven by the increase in harassment experienced by girls and young women?

Women and girls changing behaviours and fashions isn't really an answer, is it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4087360-street-harassment-of-girls-and-young-women-poll-campaign-times-today

Women and girls changing behaviours and fashions isn't really an answer, is it?

I know, @ErrolTheDragon. As I say, my post is probably just clutching at straws. The idea that fashions have changed in response to increased harassment is very disturbing (and again, you're probably right).

I'm not sure there is any link either way tbh - but any turn away from sexualised fashions is good anyway, especially for girls.

I think Billie Eilish has been refreshingly brilliant in her refusal to conform to current feminine beauty standards (aka FAKE everything).

Wearing clothes to attract boys really wasn't much on my radar till I was in my late teens, and I experienced RELATIVELY little harassment, and I wonder whether fashions during my mid teen years had a part to play in this.

Isn't this a little close to victim blaming?
Lots of women have stories of being harrassed or catcalled no matter what they wear, even baggy jumpers.

After reading threads on here I think harassment levels are very dependent on where you live.

I got loads and so did my friends. This was 80s/90s and we were 'alternative' types.

It's good if there are more options than skin tight and skimpy.

Also I don't think I ever consciously wore clothes to attract boys. I wore what was the fashion/ norm for my friendship group. (While thinking I was being v original, obviously )

@deydododatdodontdeydo, I did think about this when posting. Clearly, harassment is plain wrong, whatever girls and women are wearing. And clearly, it is NEVER the fault of the girl/woman. However, my personal experience is that whether or not it has happened has been correlated with what I've worn. The fact this is the case (if it is indeed a pattern) is not the fault of the victims of it, but I think it is a pattern (I'd like to be wrong, so please do correct me with any relevant research if it exists).

After reading threads on here I think harassment levels are very dependent on where you live.

That's interesting, @NiceGerbil. I haven't seen these threads. What are the worst and best places? I'd possibly consider a house move based on this alone.

You want relevant research and a list of which areas of the country to live in?

Why is your experience/ theory to be accepted which others need to provide evidence for their experience/ theories?

I could say ok show me some research that shows that sexual harassment on what they're wearing.

@NiceGerbil

Why is your experience/ theory to be accepted which others need to provide evidence for their experience/ theories?

I'm not expecting others to accept this at all! It's been my experience (and I wish it hadn't been). I was also very interested to hear your experiences, and would be very interested to hear other people's. I know of no research in this area, so would also be fascinated to hear about that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

You want relevant research and a list of which areas of the country to live in?

As for areas of the country, well, again, yes I would be very interested. This is something which concerns me. Not sure why that's wrong? . Really am sorry if I've caused offence, @NiceGerbil

I would also avoid places based on harassment risk if I had heard certain places were worse- and would like a list, so I know where to avoid (for my daughters mainly).

Saying that you have personally experienced a correlation between what you wear and the level of harassment you suffer should not be controversial - it's a description of a personal experience. It does not mean the OP blames anyone for harassment. It might be an objective fact, it might not.

I have sympathy with the view that it may seem like victim blaming, but that doesn't mean it actually is.

Thanks @HubertHerbert, you expressed that better than I did - yes, it may or not be objective fact that clothes and harassment are correlated in my (or anyone else's) case, but either way women and girls should be able to wear what the hell they like without this being an issue.

Not convinced, OP. If the need to hide from the male gaze drives fashion then that's not actually a positive for us. It means ultimately our choices are restricted by males' sexual tastes.

If all girls wore baggy clothes some would still get harassed. If some wear baggy and some wear revealing then the latter group will probably cop the bulk of the harassment - but the former won't escape it entirely. And that's not a win either, because it means you're only safe in your baggy t-shirt because some other girl's getting your share of the shit, as it were.

Outfits I've been subject to sexual comments/harassment in...

A brownie uniform
Combat trousers, dms and a big jumper
Tesco's uniform (back when it was that ghastly white spotty dress)
A suit I "borrowed" from my dad
School Uniform (including knee high socks and a sensible length skirt both mandatory)
Tracksuit
Ballgown

Clothes seemed pretty irrelevant. I think growing up on military bases certainly made it harder but my experiences do not match the Op's.

I get OP’s point. There are some outfits which will virtually guarantee harassment and others less so. No doubt that some men look at what a woman or girl is wearing and make a judgment that she clearly wants sexual attention from them. It is not right but I think it happens.

Girls are heavily influenced by the women they see in the music industry which seems more than ever influenced by porn. They copy that style not understanding the message some men and boys will read into it.

Yes Billie Eilish is some relief in that respect.

Sister sister has been popular in our house too and much comment on the fashion.

I notice that there is also a rather uncomfortable amount of innuendo for a children’s programme, some of Roger’s lines especially! Not to mention the car date with an older boy, and the somewhat near miss experience with the rap star who asked the girls’ age and said oh 14 is ok! Scary!

Yep, I know you're right really, @TyroTerf.

I notice that there is also a rather uncomfortable amount of innuendo for a children’s programme, some of Roger’s lines especially! Not to mention the car date with an older boy, and the somewhat near miss experience with the rap star who asked the girls’ age and said oh 14 is ok! Scary!

Oh no, @DaisiesandButtercups - I thought we were safe with Sister Sister! Will have to watch more closely...

That's interesting that you've found it made no difference, @Dinosauratemydaffodils (and I'm really sorry you've been harassed so many times, irrespective of clothes).

I am sure that clothing, and certain settings, can make a difference to how people are treated. And individuals have to decide how they want to manage that, whether it seems fair or not.

But to me the larger concern is not about direct harassment, but about how it affects the way people think if we consistently sexualise women in the way we dress them. Because it's not like the fashion industry randomly comes up with things and some of them happen to be a turn-on for men. In a lot of cases a designer is deliberately trying to push those buttons within the norms of the society they are working in. Even if the young women wearing the clothes are just doing what is fashionable without thinking about that, it's still the case that the fashion is sexualised.

If seeing women presented that way on page 3, or on advertisements, will affect how young people think about women's roles, I think seeing real young women around and being told, looking this way is how to be fashionable, it surely going to shape them even more.

I think it's really good that there seems to be more of a place now for fashion that isn't intended by the designers to say "Look at me, I'm sexy." For a while there things felt a bit grim.

Hi, I’m a 40 year old man (just to paint a picture I am a good looking professional city type). I can at least tell you why I did some of the appalling things I did as a younger man. If anyone is interested. I only came here because I do honestly care that other people do not experience life as I did (and those that met me). I am old enough to know what was right and not. I am married but have had a unusual life and become gay at 33 (don’t ask me how I can’t explain). But I can tell you why I harrased women through my teenage years. Thanks Richard