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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boundaries (again)

73 replies

xxyzz · 20/11/2020 18:01

I googled and there was a recent thread on here on boundaries, hence the again part of the title, but that one focused mainly on men overstepping women's boundaries by posting on FWR.

I wanted to look at boundaries more generally, as they seem to be key to the whole current debate.

Jane Claire Jones has interesting threads on this eg. twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1329001324864823297

Her posts and others got me thinking - and apologies if this is all really obvious, but new to me - about how the whole debate really centres on concepts of boundaries and whether or not they are acceptable. Hence for feminists, it is natural to assert that women have the right to have boundaries, for example to say 'no' to sex as we want, and to live our lives as we want. Safeguarding is all about ensuring that children's rights to boundaries are also respected and policed, especially give children are too young to be aware of their own rights to say no to to inappropriate things or things they don't want themselves. So feminists have no problem with boundaries. Broadly, we think boundaries are both necessary and good, to keep us safe. They are the protective walls we draw around ourselves to ensure our own autonomy.

Yet TRAs (MRAs) try to present boundaries differently. Hence the term T*. The term 'trans exclusive' only works as an insult because it presumes that excluding anyone - ie drawing boundaries - must be wrong.

I think the difference surely is who is drawing the boundaries, and whether they are in a dominant position or not. So, to use an example where women have been on the other side of the boundary, until recently women were excluded from many all-male spheres, such as universities, all-male clubs etc. Here the boundaries were intended to protect male privilege, not keep men safe, as they were not in any way being threatened, being the dominant class. That was an example of boundaries that were, indeed, exclusive. They could be called 'women exclusive', if we felt like using that term. Most people (certainly on the left) would agree that those boundaries are wrong.

But how have a movement of what is largely, in the UK and US, composed of well-off white, straight, middle-class men, managed to persuade so many people (including women) that women are no longer entitled to have boundaries that keep out out transwomen, on the grounds that (they claim) transwomen are less privileged than women?

And more than that, how have they successfully managed to extend the attack on women's boundaries to even refusing women to have a word to describe ourselves and our shared oppression? Hence all the attacks on the word 'woman' and replacement with words that dehumanise us and refer to our body parts or functions only eg 'cervix haver, 'birthing parent' etc.

Why have so many fallen so quickly for the lie that women are not allowed to have any boundaries? Either theoretical ones like what we call ourselves (cf. also compelled use of pronouns) or physical boundaries involving single-sex spaces, eg the endless arguments over toilets, changing rooms, rape shelters and prisons. Or sexual boundaries eg the cotton ceiling or physical ones relating to who we allow close physical access to, eg. the rights to ask for a female HCP to undertake intimate examinations or medical care. Or job-related boundaries eg women-only shortlists or women's sports.

Put together, all of this adds up to a huge assault on women's rights to have any protective boundaries.

And yet TRAs are still successful in painting women as the aggressors for demanding any boundaries at all!

And yet it is only very recently that rape within marriage has been outlawed, in both the UK and US. It is within the last decade that Jimmy Savile and then the Me Too movement have suddenly made people aware that both children and adult women are entitled to have boundaries against sexual assault.

Explain how the many women (and men) who get Me Too, who oppose Trump's assault on women's rights, can yet accept and even actively support this wholesale assault on women's rights to bodily autonomy and boundaries?

Because I just don't get it.

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TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 00:20

xxyzz You could totally have got away with it; I just figured it was the autocucumber.

Anyway, boundaries. I concur with previous posters' musings.

It's like a bolt on a gate. Whoever's got the power has the bolt on their side. And power and dominance are always in flux dependent on the people around us at any given moment. There's just a tendency at the demographic level, thanks to those pesky physical differences, towards male-dominance. Which obviously has knock-on effects.

BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 09:02

@TyroTerf oh yes, Pomo wankery very much so. We should just call it out for the meaningless nonsense word salads that they are, rather than earnestly listening, knodding, and thinking ‘there’s more to this, I must understand more, educate myself to these new words’...that’s what I was thinking to start with, now I realise that ‘no, it doesn’t make sense, because IT IS NONSENSE.’

Still, it amazes me that the young can spew out streams of seemingly intelligent long word salads made up of long complicated (meaningless) words as if you are the one that’s mad and needs educating.....it’s like all the crap academic social sciences writings that pass as respectable papers. See the grievance studies affair.

TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 09:36

The thing is, I wouldn't say it's meaningless because, well, meaning is a subjective thing. If you don't speak the lingo it's gibberish.

The point I think we need to be pushing is that farting about in intellectual rabbit holes is all very well and good and pushing the boundaries of human wossnames - but it's a luxury built on the hard labour of other people's materially-existing bodies.

Basically I would like to wave around a copy of "Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner?" until the realisation dawns. Society can only support so many idle philosophers - and the male ones appear to be far better tolerated and enabled than their female counterparts. Because, y'know' sexism.

BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 09:45

But I do think much of it is meaningless, it twisting language away from reality to twist thought...e.g. TWAW is meaningless. Idle philosophers have the luxury of having pissing Pomo contests, some will spend hours arguing 2+2= 4 is untrue and is based on western ideas of knowledge and language (which are inherently oppressive blah blah), that ‘all ways of knowing are valid’, I.e. subjective, there is no objective reality....so they will argue that 2+2 could be 5.....yes, if you change the language and meaning of those symbols.

My point is if these Pomos wankers can spend hours arguing that 2+2=5, then there is no way we could have a sensible discussion on anything more complicated than that in good faith...unless they really believe...in case we are all screwed.

BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 09:48

Unless they really believe it...in which case we are all screwed.

TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 10:07

there is no objective reality

Yeah, it's this sort of conflation that gets my back up when they do it.

"Objective truth" is a human social construct. "Material reality" is the real world of bodies and atoms and so on. The former's an illusory concept, the Testicles of Objectivity. The cluster of subjective realities with the most social power gets upgraded to "objective" status, but in the absence of external observers outwith the universe (ie god), true objectivity is... not a thing.

The body of literature detailing sexist bias on a demographic level is materially real. The story of sexism we use to describe the patterns in the data, that's the social construct. The story isn't objectively true, but the data is materially real and pretty solid.

Sorry to labour the point; I feel there's merit in the discussion because it highlights the common misconception underlying the current argument about how the race construct should be taught in schools.

TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 10:34

Actually, not sorry, cos this is the boundaries thread!

The boundaries of "objective reality" are determined by the dominant group.

Illustrative example: a woman's absolute right to say no to sex. It's not materially true (we can usually be overpowered by some if not most men). But it's such a mainstream story these days that it gets mentally upgraded to "objectively true". Which works a treat in terms of teaching most people that a woman's No is valid - but when your no is overriden it feels like you've been gaslit by the world and that can be very hard to come to terms with.

BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 11:28

Hmmm from the example given, I really do think we are talking at cross purposes about ‘objective reality’ .

TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 11:38

Almost certainly, Bollox. Which was my underlying point!

OP makes a distinction between "theoretical" and "physical" boundaries. Our right to say no is an example of the former. Single-sex spaces are a mixture of both.

xxyzz · 21/11/2020 16:10

Tired today so not sure I understand, TyroTerf.

My categorisations were trying to cover the main areas where there seem to be conflict between trans and women's rights. It doesn't really matter (to me anyway) whether they are strictly theoretical or physical, more whether that impacts how we maintain our boundaries and persuade others these boundaries still matter (which I think we all agree on).

How does what you're saying about the distinction between different types of boundaries affect how we maintain them or make their importance obvious to others?

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BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 17:00

I’m with you xxyzz, think Tyro is in her own POMO universe where the same words mean different things to mere mortals...e.g. woman are not human (from previous post), ‘objective reality’ is collective subjective reality (whereas i think of it more as something exists regardless of anyone subjectively seeing it or knowing it exists or even before having a name for it in language)...at which point Tyro comes in and tells me that I misunderstand.

That’s the exact problem I see with this POMO stuff, in Pomo world, people seem to loose the ability to discuss real things and thinking is distorted because language is twisted and overly complex, all the while appearing intellectual.

TyroTerf · 21/11/2020 17:41

I'm not sure whether to bow out because I'm pissing people off or have one last go at answering the OP.

The fact that the boundaries are theoretical as well as physical is why we're struggling to enforce them. We'll do a better job enforcing them if we recognise that they're theoretical. At the moment most of the wider arguing is centred around whether the purely-physical boundaries of a given single-sex space can be physically enforced - clearly they're permeable to males. The boundaries have to be enforced theoretically.

I don't know how to say that in words that don't piss people off. It's a function of my asd. Bowing out now.

BolloxtoGender · 21/11/2020 18:01

No you are not pissing people off. In you example, I think the theoretical boundary of woman as a sex class (I.e. you either are a woman or you are not a woman, in or out of that members boundary) is linked to the socially constructed rule about women only spaces (physical boundary). Yes the physical bounds permeable to males, but they’d be breaching the social / legal rules, and women would have the weight of the law behind them.

If males now also breach the conceptual boundary of what a woman IS, I.e men ARE women , then non of the single sex spaces are valid any more, they have removed the physical boundary, there is no way to challenge them socially or legally.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/11/2020 18:52

Yes, good points. I think what many people aren't aware of is that the conceptual boundary of biological sex as different to "gender" and gender identity is also under threat. Please stay Tyro, your posts are interesting.

xxyzz · 21/11/2020 19:51

Yes, Tyro, keep explaining. Maybe I need to reread your posts when less tired...

Were you saying variants of what BolloxtoGender and Ereshkigalangcleg said underneath your post? Because I understood those. Blush

Can see the flaws in my original classification into theoretical, physical etc - more just a heuristic. Agree the theory underpins the practice.

Ereshkilangcleg - absolutely, this is key. Without understanding this distinction, we end up with poor confused teens who think they must be trans as they don't want to dress like Barbie or be submissive. And all those of both sexes who think that a man in a dress must be a woman. This is a big part of why so many girls/women don't understand that their rights are being stolen. They literally lack the conceptual tools to understand that. :(

Sigh. How did we end up with a generation who can't see that clothes don't maketh the man (or woman), only a generation after gender-bending, New Romantics, men in make up etc?

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 21/11/2020 22:25

Really interesting discussion of inclusion vs boundaries, sparking lots of new ideas and connections I hadn’t previously seen. Real insights, real debate. This is what I love about Mumsnet FWR. It’s been a long hard day, but this refreshed me.

On a simplistic level, as I’m sleepy now — someone once said that overturning the apple cart is great until you want an apple to eat ...

PearPickingPorky · 22/11/2020 07:32

Very interesting thread.

Sorry to jump back a bit, but I was thinking about this, written by Tyro (IIRC) above:

But they notice the male manifestation of phenomena first.

And thought "ain't that the truth". And it applies in so many circumstances. The main one which jumped to mind was in rape cases.

Man rapes woman - so many people try first to understand it from his point of view; "what was she wearing, why was she on her own with him, she'd been drinking and probably had led him on by talking to him, why didn't she fight him off harder, he knew she'd had sex with before (etc) so how could he have known she didn't want it? It wouldn't be fair to punish him when he couldn't be sure she didn't want it. It would ruin his life. How are other men supposed to navigate the complex world of dating and sex if he gets punished for this?"

Society just doesn't think first about the woman. The victim.

Counter this with what we know happens when a man rapes a man (eg the Manchester serial rapist): "oh, what a horrible violation, so degrading, he tricked those poor drunk men into thinking he would help them, they were so drunk and sick and had lost their friends in the club and then he targeted them, raped them when they'd never have wanted that, how awful for those men to have to live the rest of their life with that feeling of violation" etc.

The fact that all of the reasons the media listed as to why the rapes of all those men made it worse, and definitely "real rape" (victim drunk, thrown out of club, isolated from friends, fell for someone offering to be a friend, having more drink at his apartment, video recording of the sex, friendly and chatting afterwards and in the morning, becoming Facebook friends with them afterwards) are all reasons where, if the victim was female it would be used to excuse or defend the rapist, whereas when the victims were men, these were aggravating factors which made it worse and made it clear they were undoubtedly raped.

So Tyro's point really resonated. I guess it all comes down to women just being less-human than men.

xxyzz · 22/11/2020 09:13

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Really interesting discussion of inclusion vs boundaries, sparking lots of new ideas and connections I hadn’t previously seen. Real insights, real debate. This is what I love about Mumsnet FWR. It’s been a long hard day, but this refreshed me.

On a simplistic level, as I’m sleepy now — someone once said that overturning the apple cart is great until you want an apple to eat ...

Thank you. Agree that FWR is great for long-form discussions of issues, debated at length. It's really hard to discuss nuance meaningfully on say Twitter. Plus you know on MN that you will get top feminist thinkers across the spectrum of feminist thought checking in at some point.

What I wanted to do was to drill down to the key issues/messages underneath positions GC feminists all hold but can't necessarily (or maybe that's just me) explain pithily in a sentence. I want to be able to view a TRA trope and instantly spot how best to counter it in a very brief way that points out its misogyny. The TRAs have their pithy sentences, their TWAW, their 'why are you obsessed with genitals', their 'why won't you just let me pee in peace', their suicide stats etc. We need the same 1-sentence rejoinders. People don't have time to read long debates or threads.

There are so many aspects to the attacks on women's rights, so it can seem impossible to focus on them all, it's like dealing with a many-headed hydra, and as soon as one head is gone, another two spring in its place. So this thread is about trying to look at the underlying common themes, the roots of the tree rather than tackling every branch or leaf separately, if that makes sense? I felt that ideas of boundaries and inclusion - liminality?? - are key to understanding this.

But so many interesting discussions going on across FWR. I might copy across a couple of posts on other threads that really got me thinking too.

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xxyzz · 22/11/2020 09:22

Just to follow on from my point above, I particularly want to get us to a point where no post/tweet from a GC feminist feels the need to begin a reply to a TRA with 'I'm not transphobic but...'

I really hate the fact that the TRAs have so successfully shifted the Overton window and framed the debate on their own turf (pun intended) that women feel the need to start by defending themselves against false accusations, which immediately draws attention to those accusations and suggests they might be true or worthy of consideration. I want to have a rejoinder ready that focuses on the attacks taking place on women's rights only as that is what the issue is and why I'm posting. I want to shift the Overton window back towards the assumptions underlying Me Too, that women are entitled to have boundaries and say No. Which is (still) something that few (on the left anyway) would be confident in explicitly rejecting.

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xxyzz · 22/11/2020 09:26

PearPickingPorky

Thanks, really interesting post.

YY - men seen as default human. Women as not-fully-human. I'm sure that's a big part of why both men but also, critically, women and girls, can't see why women's boundaries being attacked/erased matters. Even post Me Too. Sad

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BolloxtoGender · 22/11/2020 10:54

I see your point that women are not treated with the same respect as men and I couldn’t agree more.

However language matters, I see here we fall into the POMO trap of twisting words and meaning ( which may seem clever and intellectual) but really does not help discussions, metaphors as reality of phrases like ‘women as not fully human’ when they (clearly) ARE human but not afforded the same amount of respect that they should be in line with the other 50% are not the same.

Sorry, this tide of POMO stuff and twisting of language that I see all over SM is really corrupting thought and discussions.

BolloxtoGender · 22/11/2020 11:47

@xxyzz just thinking, you are right, the TRAs do seem to have a play book of standard (repetitive) phrases they out out with, that leave us stumped. While we try to reason , explain etc. Nobody is really listening or hearing, we need to come up with some pithy comeback phrases that make of point succinctly.

E.g. just want to pee in peace - So do I.

Not sure....

PearPickingPorky · 22/11/2020 15:20

@BolloxtoGender

I see your point that women are not treated with the same respect as men and I couldn’t agree more.

However language matters, I see here we fall into the POMO trap of twisting words and meaning ( which may seem clever and intellectual) but really does not help discussions, metaphors as reality of phrases like ‘women as not fully human’ when they (clearly) ARE human but not afforded the same amount of respect that they should be in line with the other 50% are not the same.

Sorry, this tide of POMO stuff and twisting of language that I see all over SM is really corrupting thought and discussions.

I could have said "women are not deserving of all the Human Rights that other humans are" then.
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