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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women jailed for life for violent crimes they didn't commit

19 replies

Imnobody4 · 18/11/2020 11:16

Women are being jailed for life for violent crimes they did not commit under unfair laws, a report has found.

The study, carried out by Manchester Metropolitan University, unearthed new evidence revealing at least 109 women have been sentenced to long or even life prison sentences under laws called joint enterprise.

The woman or girl did not use a deadly weapon in any of the cases, while women partook in no violence whatsoever in 90 per cent of cases.
Researchers found women were not even present at the scene in half of the cases – with the police and crown prosecutors using guesswork to make assumptions about how much women knew about the case and what their intentions were.

www.thejusticegap.com/half-of-women-convicted-under-joint-enterprise-not-even-present-a-scene/

Not sure which rule of misogyny this is. Presumably these all count as violent crimes to prove women are as violent as men.

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CremeEggThief · 18/11/2020 11:23

There was a case recently where I thought the sentence seemed very harsh for the woman involved. She got 8 years after her partner killed her child when she wasn't in the house at that time. I don't know any further details, so I don't know there if was a pattern of neglect or an isolated incident, but if it was the latter, I thought it harsh.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/11/2020 12:02

I'd like to read the report itself, if anyone has a link. It does sound shocking.

sawdustformypony · 18/11/2020 12:41

Seeing as joint enterprise would include conspiracy, incitement and aiding & abetting etc there is no requirement for defendants to be actually present at the scene of violence.

Couldn't find the report on MMU's site - maybe others might have more success. There was an old report but that was dated 2016 and more to do with ethnicity.

Imnobody4 · 18/11/2020 12:44

barrowcadbury.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Stories-of-Injustice-women-and-JE.pdf

I've found a link - it's a pdf. Haven't read it all yet.

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sleepyhead · 18/11/2020 12:45

Is this a gendered thing? Many people, especially young people in groups, are convicted of serious crime through the law of joint enterprise. They particularly warn of this in schools - it's not enough to not be the person who held the knife.

Lot of young men serving long sentences because, they would say, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The law would say of course that their presence was encouraging and condoning the crime and therefore they are part of it.

In some cases this will be right, and it's pure luck who struck the fatal blow, in others there will be people unfairly caught up in it all.

Goosefoot · 18/11/2020 12:51

Yes, I'd be interesting in seeing how these situations and numbers compare to other uses of the same kinds of laws.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/11/2020 13:18

Thanks OP for the link.

Imnobody4 · 18/11/2020 15:06

Here's one of the case studies to show what they're talking about.

Women jailed for life for violent crimes they didn't commit
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RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 15:13

I think there needs to be provision for joint enterprise because otherwise people will just blame each other and get off if you can’t prove who actually did it. However, some of these sound a bit unfair, especially where it is clear who the actual perpetrator was.

20mum · 18/11/2020 16:02

It really would be impossible to get rid of this law, as others say, because often there is no way to prove who held the knife, or which parent did what, when, etc.

There is an area where I would like it extended, for a particular reason important to all of us. The Baroness Cumberlege latest report was after a series of medical scandal investigations she has carried out. Over and over, serious misconduct , killing and maiming, ruining lives, carries on, long after it could easily have been ended.

The reason is, as she says, the perpetrators are arrogant and nobody dares intervene, because of the code of 'not snitching'. This is backed by nursing and medical Unions and backed by the culture of putting the interests of fellow staff, not recipients, at the heart of the service. People who dare blow the whistle know for sure they and their careers will be ruined. The wrongdoers will escape to continue exactly as before, or in extremes, will simply move like the old abusing priests, to do the same thing in some other place. (Even care home staff have found the same)

Often, the notoriety is confined within the institution, where colleagues, workers in different sections but in the same place, and almost everyone down to the local stray cat, are insiders to at the least rumour and gossip, but, for closer people, actual witnessing of continued harm.

Heart scandals, baby scandals, gynae scandals, removing healthy breasts, putting in harmful mesh, prescribing thalidomide type drugs to pregnant women....on and on it goes.

One scandal was brought into the open by a fluke, because one of the theatre team who were A L L horrified by what the surgeon was habitually doing, happened to be a New Zealander, who used the option of skipping the country and returning to New Zealand, where he could easily get work without fear of the mafia-like retribution on U.K. whistle blowers.

My suggestion that the usual legal concept of being liable for what you 'knew, or could reasonably be expected to know' must apply to insiders of organisations where malpractice is being carried out.

That would reverse the incentive to tacitly collude in even fatal harm, by remaining silent, in order to keep one's job and pension safe.
Instead, the failure to whistle blow would be taken as being jointly liable.

The rest of the theatre team, the fellow priests, the admin. staff and the caretakers, would all have that incentive to stop harm, in order to save themselves appearing in court alongside the perpetrator.

It could be lawfully an assumed condition of all employment.

"Don't whistle blow, because you will ruin yourself" would be replaced by " Whistle blow, because it is the only way to protect yourself"

Imnobody4 · 18/11/2020 16:43

It isn't about getting rid of the law but examining how it operates in practice.
This isn't a case of who wielded the knife in a gang fight or who shot someone in a robbery.
The woman or girl did not use a deadly weapon in any of the cases, while women partook in no violence whatsoever in 90 per cent of cases.
JE is raising the charges they face to manslaughter or murder.

I find it ironic that men who watch (and therefore incite) child sex abuse
online can walk away with community service orders. But young ( often vulnerable) women get years in prison for a crime they haven't actually committed.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 18/11/2020 16:51

They need something to convict people who hire hitmen or convince friends/lovers to kill another person. Just because you don’t pull the trigger yourself and you were off getting an alibi, that doesn’t make you innocent. And I doubt that anyone could be convicted to a long prison term based on “guesses” and “assumptions”. There would have to be concrete evidence like communications, transfer of money, a motive, etc.

Goosefoot · 18/11/2020 16:53

@Imnobody4

It isn't about getting rid of the law but examining how it operates in practice. This isn't a case of who wielded the knife in a gang fight or who shot someone in a robbery. The woman or girl did not use a deadly weapon in any of the cases, while women partook in no violence whatsoever in 90 per cent of cases. JE is raising the charges they face to manslaughter or murder.

I find it ironic that men who watch (and therefore incite) child sex abuse
online can walk away with community service orders. But young ( often vulnerable) women get years in prison for a crime they haven't actually committed.

Yes, I think we all understand what you have put in italics here, no one is disagreeing with that. What people are saying is that's not necessarily why the law works that way, and its use doesn't seem particularly to be confined to women.
RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 16:56

It does seem unfair in some of the cases. But I think someone who encourages and incites a crime should be liable even if they aren’t the one wielding the knife. A woman who goes with a man to a place where she knows the intention is to stab someone should be tried as if she held the knife. Where it’s unfair is where someone in the group suddenly produces a weapon and uses it and the others are tried under joint enterprise even though they weren’t aware this would happen.

I guess with the watching abuse that it’s a bit further removed. Obviously it causes a demand for this stuff but by the time it is viewed, the crime has already been committed. However, a man who assists in the production of recordings of child abuse should of course be tried as if he committed the acts himself.

20mum · 18/11/2020 19:11

You are spot on about the viewers of abuse being charged as at least partly culpable. There is also a far worse situation, where people actually order the abuse to be carried out, live, for them to watch. In that case they are absolutely equally guilty.

Hayeahnobut · 18/11/2020 19:16

The group most harshly affected by the JE law is young black men.

VienneseWhirligig · 18/11/2020 19:20

Juries have to consider whether someone is guilty of murder either as a principal owner or as an accessory, but do not need to specify which they conclude is the case when they give their verdict. I was a juror on a murder trial with two defendants, one admitted his guilt and the other did not. The evidence was presented and we were instructed to consider the other defendant's guilt either as physically taking part in the killing (principal) or by their presence, whether they encouraged/egged on the other person (accessory). Presence alone is not enough to find guilty, but doing something to enable or encourage a murder is. I'm not sure that women are treated differently when charges are brought, it's the way the law works. Now whether jurors have biases about women who, in particular, are present when a child dies or is seriously injured, that could be true and that is something that is difficult to tackle.

Imnobody4 · 18/11/2020 19:24

@PlanDeRaccordement

They need something to convict people who hire hitmen or convince friends/lovers to kill another person. Just because you don’t pull the trigger yourself and you were off getting an alibi, that doesn’t make you innocent. And I doubt that anyone could be convicted to a long prison term based on “guesses” and “assumptions”. There would have to be concrete evidence like communications, transfer of money, a motive, etc.
You seem to have a rather rosy view of our justice system.

In 2016, in the case of R v Jogee, the Supreme Court found that the law had ‘taken a wrong turn’ when it came to joint enterprise. Lord Neuberger held that it was wrong to treat ‘foresight’ as a sufficient test to convict someone of murder.

This isn't about hitmen etc, these are all covered by conspiracy etc

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RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 19:31

But OP, in Jogee the Supreme Court reined in the law relating to joint enterprise. Courts are now bound by Jogee now so the law is substantially stricter than just being there when the crime is committed. If you actively encourage the commission of a crime the fact that you yourself weren’t violent is neither here nor there.
And as a pp pointed out, it’s black men and often gang members who are most often prosecuted using JE law.

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