"Transgender man, 34, loses legal battle to be named as the father on his child's birth certificate as Supreme Court refuses to hear his case"

[Malahaha]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8953783/Transgender-man-34-loses-legal-battle-named-father-childs-birth-certificate.html

Don't know if this was already posted but it's a glimmer of hope that soe judges have their heads screwed on tightly.

Yeah it seems that it’s easier to pass for male if you’re originally female than the other way around, which makes sense as testosterone produces irreversible effects on the body.
Obviously you’re not going to know whether someone who looks male actually has female genitalia so I think many women would be uncomfortable with someone who looks male, with facial hair and deep voice, even if that person is actually female. Same as they would feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone claiming to be female who is obviously male by appearance. That’s why there needs to be diversity in provision of services and nobody should be without support if they are assaulted.

If Freddy won and opened the gates for others to do it too, would they then only be entitled to paternity (as opposed the better maternal) leave etc, I wonder

@EyesOpening

If Freddy won and opened the gates for others to do it too, would they then only be entitled to paternity (as opposed the better maternal) leave etc, I wonder

Presumably we’d start to see big corporations try to wriggle out of discrimination on the grounds of maternity claims, now that ‘men‘ can birth babies too.

I heard of this trans man needing to amend already changed medical info when pregnant in order to obtain maternity services on insurance

(The boyfriend, Dominique, looks like a similar build to Freddy, to me.)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/transgender-man-pregnant-second-child-22227559

I imagine the maternity leave argument to about 'parental' leave and it would be an interesting one as since the split parental leave was introduced there hasn't been a massive take up, men continue to go back to work after the statutory two weeks and women continue, in the most part, to be off work for 9-12 months.

If 'legal men' were to take 'maternity' leave then it would probably increase or statutory maternity payments would go up.

Already happened Betty, with breastfeeding...

campbelllawobserver.com/men-can-lactate-too-breastfeeding-mom-loses-discrimination-case/

[quote OhHolyJesus]Already happened Betty, with breastfeeding...

campbelllawobserver.com/men-can-lactate-too-breastfeeding-mom-loses-discrimination-case/[/quote]
Absolutely fucking horrifying.

Presumably we’d start to see big corporations try to wriggle out of discrimination on the grounds of maternity claims, now that ‘men‘ can birth babies too.

I raised this on another thread where someone suggested a (pregnancy-related) issue could be sex discrimination and got told to shut up by several people as it was derailing.

'Pregnancy & maternity' is a protected characteristic too, though, so that's something. (Which is what I suggested in the other thread, I wasn't just plopping that in for the sake of it)

Had a quick look at that Mirror article which has the wording "At the age of 20, Kayden realised he wanted to be a man" - bit offensive to claim it's a choice, I thought?

I wonder what would’ve happened, had Freddy co parented with Freddy’s transman friend (some time love interest? I forget the specifics but the friend was in the early part of the documentary).

Would they have wanted Father and Father? Or Father and Parent 2 (as lesbians can have mother and parent 2)?

Makes no odds either way, I suppose, seeing as the actual categories are ‘mother = who the baby came out of’ and ‘father/parent 2 = other person with legal responsibility for the child’ rather than egg giver/sperm donator/unmarried biological father who couldn’t be arsed to register.

@EyesOpening

If Freddy won and opened the gates for others to do it too, would they then only be entitled to paternity (as opposed the better maternal) leave etc, I wonder

I bet they would bite the bullet and accept the mis naming indignity of being labelled as being on “maternity” leave. Or maybe they will demand that maternity leave, ie the leave granted to pregnant mothers to be and new mothers , must be renamed something woke to protect sensitive emotions.

rather than egg giver/sperm donator/unmarried biological father who couldn’t be arsed to register.

I think in the ever-increasing world of babies being born with different DNA to their (social) parents, I think there's an argument to have genetic parents (the person or people who have their DNA/gametes) listed alongside biological mother (surrogate mother or the mother who gives birth and intends to raise them) and then also those who have legal parental responsibility (whether they have been previously listed or not) .

It's not a world I'd like to see so much of but recording a surrogate mother doesn't necessarily tie up who you're actually related to, there should be a space to write who the eggs cane from, where the sleep came from...particularly as double donation is possible (not currently in the U.K but it's another point raised by the Law Commission's surrogacy Consultation) and on the rise for single older women.

A friend was telling me of her friend's plan to do exactly that. At 46 and bipolar she cannot adopt but she hopes to get pregnant with donated eggs and she has bought the donated sperm already.

What will happen to her mental health should it fail then I don't know. I don't fancy her chances but she is determined to be a mother it appears.

Maybe something similar to adoption would work better for complex situations?

So you have an original birth certificate, recording the same as recorded currently and then an additional record, with space for the biological origins and the legally responsible (which in the case of double donor is in a biological sense, the same as adoption). Make it three separate docs if necessary (so the kid has some privacy- although short form certificates do that anyway). Seal up the extra info until the child is of legal age and then they can apply for it?

Dunno. I’d rather fuck surrogacy off entirely personally, but there must be a way to record facts without turning the world upside down or disadvantaging the child.

[quote OhHolyJesus]Already happened Betty, with breastfeeding...

campbelllawobserver.com/men-can-lactate-too-breastfeeding-mom-loses-discrimination-case/[/quote]
That is an American case. It would not be followed in the UK.

@OhHolyJesus

I heard of this trans man needing to amend already changed medical info when pregnant in order to obtain maternity services on insurance

(The boyfriend, Dominique, looks like a similar build to Freddy, to me.)

www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/transgender-man-pregnant-second-child-22227559

I imagine the maternity leave argument to about 'parental' leave and it would be an interesting one as since the split parental leave was introduced there hasn't been a massive take up, men continue to go back to work after the statutory two weeks and women continue, in the most part, to be off work for 9-12 months.

If 'legal men' were to take 'maternity' leave then it would probably increase or statutory maternity payments would go up.

In the UK I don't think it would make the slightest difference what you call yourself. Maternity leave, Maternity pay, the right to attend ante-natal classes or to be allowed space/time to breastfeed are predicated on the physical requirement of being pregnant.

Both my earlier examples are from America and I appreciate we have much better maternity leave packages and pregnancy and maternity are protected characteristics and the medical systems are entirely different.

I shared as examples of what can happen, not of what is happening in the Uk, or Europe necessarily (as Freddy is going to submit to the European Court of Human Rights).

Surrogacy laws, egg donor laws, IVF provision and maternity leave etc all vary country to country, they are not the same across Europe, but what should be universally upheld is the UN Charter on the Rights of the Child:

Article 8 protects children's right to preserve their identity, including their nationality, name and family relations, without unlawful interference. In addition, States are required to help children regain any aspect of their identity that has been taken away from them illegally

I think it's possible that Freddy is so far down this line now with support and rainbow-washed legal guidance, that Freddy truly believes that the child should not have a mother listed on his (the child's) BC and that Freddy is in fact the father.

This would remove the father/sperm donor, give him the right to anonymity (now illegal in the U.K.) and undermine the above Article 8.

Freddy has asked to be named as father or parent so I think that might be where something could slip through as it's a sort of loophole, but as the U.K. moves away from the EU I'm not sure how likely any changes to UK law would be, even with this as a test case.

It could also be possible for SJ (Freddy's son) to reverse any change to his BC but how likely that is as he grows up being taught that his mother is actually his father I don't know.

Ultimately the BC is an important legal record of birth but he will he raised without a mother as his mother will he thought of as his father because that's what Freddy believes and wants.

Ultimately the BC is an important legal record of birth but he will he raised without a mother as his mother will he thought of as his father because that's what Freddy believes and wants.

It's so awful for the child. As soon as he learns to speak, or socialise at school or pre school. Every time someone says something about their mother, or asks him about his mother, he's going to have to explain, deflect. Every single time. You can only control what people think and say on a very limited basis.

He's going to be saddled with Freddie's issues from the off.

Yes hard enough for the kids who have an absent mother through family breakdown or bereavement.

Would be much easier if Freddy hadn’t made a documentary, of course, because then most people would probably assume that is the case. As things stand, people around the child will know the truth before the child is old enough to conceptualise or explain it.

Yeah kids of experimental parenting tend to be quite affected by it and not in a positive way. This is fundamentally about Freddy wanting to make a political point by putting himself in the spotlight. Most kids just want to fit in and hate attention of this kind.

@Clymene

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2020/559.html

Here is the court report from the last failed appeal.

Re surgery - a lot of transwomen refer to having surgery when they are referring to things like implants, adam's apple shaving or facial feminisation surgery rather than genital surgery

I don’t know who Lord Bingham is but I like his statement that “the word “dog” cannot be construed to mean “cat”.”

Now I’m not a legal mind, let alone a judge, but it seems to me that Lord Bingham is stating a truth universally recognised in every situation, apart from it seems the one that for some people apparently defies all natural and human made law.

Lord Bingham died in 2010 but sounds like we need more like him today.

Freddy McConnell from photos and videos 100% passes as a man. He's slightly built and a bit weedy but I don't think anyone would think he wasn't a man if you didn't know his history.

Yeah it seems that it’s easier to pass for male if you’re originally female than the other way around, which makes sense as testosterone produces irreversible effects on the body

You know how transwomen sometimes look convincing in photos, and occasionally even on video, but when you see them in real life there is always something that reveals the truth? I find it’s the same with transmen - maybe something about movement, or gait, or maybe the size and build is more apparent when you are standing close.

@Datun

Ultimately the BC is an important legal record of birth but he will he raised without a mother as his mother will he thought of as his father because that's what Freddy believes and wants.

It's so awful for the child. As soon as he learns to speak, or socialise at school or pre school. Every time someone says something about their mother, or asks him about his mother, he's going to have to explain, deflect. Every single time. You can only control what people think and say on a very limited basis.

He's going to be saddled with Freddie's issues from the off.

My father was never involved in my life. His choice, they were both very young so although it was difficult as an adult I can kind of understand it.

Although he wasn't present I knew he existed and it was still really difficult at times for me and I'd be a liar to say it hasn't had an impact on my personality or development, and thats with a very stable and loving mother and deeply involved extended family.

I can't imagine the emotional or psycological issues it would cause to be raised to believe your parent (mother or father) never existed. TBH I just don't know how this whole situation has been allowed to get this far. We keep being told that people have very intense therapy when they transition, but if that is the case how is this allowed to happen?

A part of me doesn't even blame the parent involved because I feel that they are also being manipulated by people with who don't have this family's best interests at heart.

I think its a really sorry situation and it just makes me feel incredibly sad for the parent and the child.

The child will also never know his father, because he is told he already has one.

The sperm donor is out there somewhere, maybe alive or dead, maybe having donated to other couples who have made siblings for Freddy's son. The man whose sperm made SJ probably thought he was giving to a woman to help her become a mother, whether single or not. What he has unknowingly contributed to is a legal case that seeks to remove the word and legal status of 'mother'. He probably still doesn't know and I wonder how many men who have donated sperm wonder if it was theirs?

The mother role is lost for this child, regardless of what the birth certificate says, Freddy isn't the mother as far as Freddy is concerned but also the father has gone, the social role of mother and father is a sort of all-in-one in the form of Freddy, I suppose how many single parents are, but the biological father has gone too as if Freddy wins that space on the birth certificate will be occupied by Freddy.

I think the courts will uphold the decision as the implications are too great but I do think it's possible for it to be seen as a one-off, where the sperm donor goes under 'parent 2' and I just hope those who review this case when Andrew Spearman applies for it, considers the long term impact for SJ and SJ's kids and all other children born into similar situations.