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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transgender man, 34, loses legal battle to be named as the father on his child's birth certificate as Supreme Court refuses to hear his case"

460 replies

Malahaha · 16/11/2020 14:24

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8953783/Transgender-man-34-loses-legal-battle-named-father-childs-birth-certificate.html

Don't know if this was already posted but it's a glimmer of hope that soe judges have their heads screwed on tightly.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
merrymouse · 21/10/2021 17:00

'Sperm Provider Joke'?

Or “masculinestereotypedparentjoke” could work?

DadJoke · 21/10/2021 17:05

@OhHolyJesus

I've been trying to think of an accetable phrase, but I'm at a loss.

Maybe Uterus Owning Body? I suppose to make it fair we would have to also consider words like Mum and Dad, but then if Dad was not inclusive enough your surname would need to be 'Sperm Provider Joke'?

Would phrases like Dad Bod and Dad Dancing then become Sperm Provider Bod and Sperm Provider Dancing? Doesn't have quite the same ring to them...

Do ask some trans friends and let us know what they come up with.

We are talking about giving trans men the option to include birth parent on a birth certificate. You've gone the full "and where will it end - men marrying snakes?" route. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
VerveClique · 21/10/2021 17:08

Why are we trying to erase mothers? It's one of life's true certainties that we were all born from one, a woman at that.

I am very saddened that anyone advocating for the erasure of the concept of mother as set out on birth certificates doesn't have better things to do.

It's the ultimate vanity project. The document belongs to the child. No-one ever really sees the document and anyone who does categorically does NOT care.

Like PPs have said, I can't believe courts have ever entertained this absolute nonsense.

merrymouse · 21/10/2021 17:10

You've gone the full "and where will it end - men marrying snakes?" route. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

No, your sexism is being pointed out.

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that you fail to see this.

merrymouse · 21/10/2021 17:12

We are talking about giving trans men the option to include birth parent on a birth certificate.

And it is being pointed out that ‘mother’ includes everyone who gives birth, even if they are a bit sexist and believe some behaviours and presentation is only appropriate for men.

OhHolyJesus · 21/10/2021 17:24

You've gone the full "and where will it end - men marrying snakes?"

Not sure what snakes you're referring to...Just trying to be fair and inclusive of everyone who identifies as Dads.

merrymouse · 21/10/2021 17:27

Similarly the legal term ‘tenant’ includes people who believe all property is theft.

OhHolyJesus · 21/10/2021 17:39

In terms of women rental I suppose the foetus is the tenant and the commissioning parents are bankrolling the occupancy.

Is that where "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" comes in?

Clymene · 21/10/2021 17:40

@DadJoke - I don't know any lesbian parents (and I know lots) who would like to be referred to as the birth parent. You suggested it was 'in a medical context'.

In a social context, I can't think why anyone would ask. It comes up in conversation typically at some point but as it is of zero relevance, I can't see why or when.

I also don't believe that asking a couple 'which one of you was the birthing parent?' is any less rude or intrusive or 'upsetting' to use your word than asking 'which one of you is the mother?'

It's rude and intrusive either way.

OhHolyJesus · 21/10/2021 17:46

Does the government interpret law or write it?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVSauZ3D1mB/?utmmedium=copyy_link

VerveClique · 21/10/2021 19:41

My mother grew up in a place where there was discrimination that led to difficulties in getting an education, jobs and housing.

The idea that this is causing ‘problems for trans families’ it’s entirely frivolous.

It’s causing problems for the egos of (some) trans parents. That’s it.

ChristmasPlanning · 21/10/2021 20:02

What is the legal implication of not providing your child with a birth certificate?

CharlieParley · 21/10/2021 20:26

it doesn't deny them the knowledge, that's the point. Most people who put "mother," trans men could put "birth parent", and it provides exactly the same information. There is no trauma, no lack of information, no removal from history and no problem.

You're really not getting this, are you DadJoke? It matters not one jot what a woman who doesn't want to be a woman wants to be called for the purposes of her child's birth certificate. Because it is not her certificate. It does not document her birth. It documents her child's birth. Every single child on this planet has a mother who gave birth to that child. Every child has a right to know who that mother is. It's completely irrelevant whether that woman would rather not document her child's birth than be registered as the mother of her child. Because it isn't about her. It's only about that child. And the child has rights that exist independently of its mother. Said rights include the right to an identity, part of which is knowing which woman gave birth to you and is therefore your birth mother.

I know the fact that other people have rights, too, is a difficult concept for many proponents of the doctrine of gender identity, but we would make a lot more progress in this debate if that knowledge would register. And in this case, the right lies solely with the child.

This is not about the birth mother. This is not about what she wants to be called. This is about the child, who is entitled to an entry under the field "mother".

It's also rather disingenuous to be arguing about "birth parent" when the whole case is about a female person who wants to be registered as the father, thereby denying the child its rights to knowing its own mother.

And it's pointless to argue that these particular children will know because of all the publicity. There's no doubt about it - look at law proposals in other countries if you need proof and the ideas brought up here by trans rights organisations - as soon as a court allows the mother to be registered as the father, there will be children denied the knowledge of who gave birth to them, and it will be denied permanently by those women and men who will not countenance any reference to their birth sex.

We have some protection in the UK for donor-conceived children, who now have a legal right to know who their biological father (in cases of sperm donation via a clinic) or mother (in cases of egg donation via a clinic) is. And it took a very long time for children to be given even that much, but anyone who donated sperm or eggs after 1 April 2005 had to accept that the UK Parliament decided that donor information also belongs to the child conceived using the donor's sperm or egg.

It took 60 years to get to this point and the first children allowed to know the name of their biological father or mother under this law will not be able to ask for that information until after 1 April 2023 at the earliest.

In the meantime we have had decades or research into donor-conceived children who had no way of ever finding out who their biological father was (and latterly biological mother) , and the psychological issues this caused them. That's because humans have an inherent need to know where they come from, and as we now know, babies do have an inherent need to be with their birth mother (the discussion around this need has led to the phrase the "fourth trimester" being coined).

This is why in cases where a parent transitions, UK Parliament decided to provide protection for their children through the Gender Recognition Act. This sets out that children of parents who have legally changed sex do not change their legal relationship with that parent - the father remains the father, even if that father is legally a woman and the mother remains the mother, even if that mother is legally a man. This was done specifically to protect children.

If a court changes that legal rule, it will create a situation where children will be denied vital information about their own history. And we already know that this damages the child's wellbeing.

OhHolyJesus · 21/10/2021 20:35

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Charlie.

JoodyBlue · 21/10/2021 20:56

we have had decades or research into donor-conceived children who had no way of ever finding out who their biological father was (and latterly biological mother) , and the psychological issues this caused them. That's because humans have an inherent need to know where they come from, and as we now know, babies do have an inherent need to be with their birth mother (the discussion around this need has led to the phrase the "fourth trimester" being coined).

@Charlie - we do! And the needs of people to parent as paramount, over the needs of children to be parented, needs very careful scrutiny. We have a society now that considers parenthood a right somehow. It isn't, it never has been. Children are not commodities to be bought and sold and acquired somehow. I despair at how we have got here.

DadJoke · 22/10/2021 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

OhHolyJesus · 22/10/2021 13:25

The father to be is an anonymous sperm donor.

You're right though, it's not complicated at all. The human species has survived for centuries as a result of simple biological reproduction.

OldCrone · 22/10/2021 13:31

We both agree that a child needs to know who gave birth to them - that's what the court said. Birth parent and mother both do that job.

Mother does that job. What is wrong with the word 'mother'?

What benefit do you believe there is for the child to have their mother referred to as their 'birth parent' (or inaccurately as their 'father') on their birth certificate?

Beowulfa · 22/10/2021 13:43

[quote DadJoke]@CharlieParley you really aren't getting this at all. We both agree that a child needs to know who gave birth to them - that's what the court said. Birth parent and mother both do that job. It's really not that complicated.

In any case, it's moot, because the father-to-be will be travelling to Sweden to give birth, where the birth certificate will state "father."

He has a gofundme if anyone is interested.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/10/21/trans-dad-freddy-mcconnell-sweden/[/quote]
But if this unfortunate child is born in Sweden, it won't be a case of "birth parent" or "mother" it'll be "father" which is a shameless lie. Why are you supporting children being given factually incorrect data on one of the most important documents they'll ever own?

Cattenberg · 22/10/2021 13:50

Or “far”.

DadJoke · 22/10/2021 13:52

@Beowulfa I've stated my position, which I believe is a reasonable compromise.

I'm just reporting the facts.

CharlieParley · 22/10/2021 13:55

[quote DadJoke]@CharlieParley you really aren't getting this at all. We both agree that a child needs to know who gave birth to them - that's what the court said. Birth parent and mother both do that job. It's really not that complicated.

In any case, it's moot, because the father-to-be will be travelling to Sweden to give birth, where the birth certificate will state "father."

He has a gofundme if anyone is interested.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/10/21/trans-dad-freddy-mcconnell-sweden/[/quote]
Maybe you should read the judgement again:

65. Furthermore, as Mr Jaffey submitted, it cannot simply be a question of this Court substituting a word such as “parent” for the word “mother”. This is because the word “parent” has a distinct meaning which has been given to it by Parliament in other legislation. This has been the product of considered legislative change over several decades, in various statutes, including the HFEA 1990 and the HFEA 2008.

DadJoke · 22/10/2021 14:13

@CharlieParley I read the judgment, and as I said at the very outset, an change which would allow the phrase "birth parent" as well as mother would deal with the issues the court highlighted and give trans men the option not to be referred to as a mother.

Highwind · 22/10/2021 14:51

I moved to the other side of the country a few years back and have been estranged from my family until somewhat recently. I had told my family that I eloped in Bora Bora ... but I actually got married in the local church. My husband took great pride in marrying in the same place as his parents and grandparents.

My family is coming to the area to stay for a week or so around Christmas and I just know my wedding/marriage is going to come up....

Any ideas on how I can get my marriage certificate altered to reflect Bora Bora? It gives me a huge amount of distress that Bora Bora is not listed as the location as it was always my dream but I just couldn’t afford it and I don’t want my certificate to out me as either poor or a liar.

Thanks all.

OldCrone · 22/10/2021 15:10

[quote DadJoke]@CharlieParley I read the judgment, and as I said at the very outset, an change which would allow the phrase "birth parent" as well as mother would deal with the issues the court highlighted and give trans men the option not to be referred to as a mother.[/quote]
The birth certificate belongs to the child. Why should transmen have any 'options' about how they are named on someone else's birth certificate? What about the rights of the child to have a birth certificate which is an accurate record of their birth?

Do you also believe that the mother of a transgender person should have a right to veto any changes to their child's birth certificate if their child gets a GRC? Because according to your argument, the parents have a right for their wishes to be reflected on their child's birth certificate.

Should a mother be able to veto a change of sex on her child's birth certificate if her child gets a GRC on the grounds that she gave birth to a girl not a boy (or vice versa)?

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