Lesbian community groups and legislation

[MuthaFunka61]

Hi.

I'm a steering group member for an older lesbian community group and we've applied for funding but have been asked about our inclusivity policy towards trans women. As a relatively new membership led group this is something that hasn't yet been decided but we're aware that we'll need to have this discussion amongst the membership sooner or later but the consensus amongst the steering group is that we are for women born lesbians.

A couple of the members are looking at different sources and I offered to ask here.

So what we need is specific legislation regarding the maintenance of sex specific spaces and whether there is anything which may be of particular reference to lesbians.

Any thoughts?
Thanks

Equality Act covers you as female-only; you don't technically need lesbian-specific legislation for this. You're allowed to exclude males on the basis that their inclusion would scupper the thing for the female target audience.

Someone will doubtless be along to quote the relevant section of the law very shortly.

I'm not aware of laws relating to sexuality-specific spaces, but as sexual orientation is a protected characteristic there ought to be something. Is there a legal right to have homosexual-only spaces? Cos if there is, you're sorted. Watching with interest!

I presume you're inclusive of all female homosexual people under the protected characteristics?

Lesbian groups do not have to be inclusive of male people, and the Equality Act presents the exemption that you can quote. You can have to hand the links and signposting to LGBT+ groups that a TW or male person of another chosen identity can find support at if they contact your group for help.

Under the Equality Act the Government has confirmed that is the provision of single sex services these are permissable even though gender reassinment is also a protected characteristic.

Equality Act protected characteristics:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

Government statement:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4065959-Government-statement-on-single-sex-spaces-as-guaranteed-under-the-EA

So the only problem you would have is saying that the group is for lesbians, ie those born biologically female who are sexually attracted to biological females, and that it is "justified" not to include any one else. (The assumption that this justification is usually in relation to health support or women who have suffered male violence.) But as a group I am sure you can justify why a lesbian groups should only be for lesbians.

But what is clear that those who "self identify" aren't in any way covered by the EA protected characteristics.

It maybe that someone with a background in the legal profession knows of cases that have set a precident (spelling?) for the case for lesbian only groups.

Thanks for your responses which confirm our understanding and makes the questions we've been asked more peculiar,but in the current climate maybe not.

We're assuming at the moment the funding group know something which the SG (of amazing proactive lesbian feminists) don't.
Its a good point to have info ready for signposting though @MichelleofzeResistance so thanks for this.

So,unless someone comes along with something we're unaware of it makes it even more puzzling as to what it is we're missing. Fortunately we've a brilliantly articulate and level-headed Chair who's already drafted an email very subtlety but firmly pushing back.

Good luck with it Mutha

I would not assume that funding groups know more than you.

But you should assume they have gone through full Stonewall training and they will maintain that truth. Which is why an existing precedent would be good, rather than you as the group having to set it.

Somehow something which only a few decades ago would not have been questioned, ie that a lesbian group is for lesbian, is nowadays seen as being contentious - and I have no doubt you will be told harmful to others!

Funding group can probably spot the shitstorm on the horizon. Guaranteed sooner or later you'll have heterosexual male 'lesbians' seeking entry. I would advise attempting to head this off at the pass by being very clear your target audience (as it were) is females who are exclusively same-sex-attracted.

Funding group may well be basing their ideas on the dodgy guidance that wilfully misrepresents the EA; the law says you can exclude male 'lesbians' but the guidance says you can't. Make sure you've got the actual law on hand to chuck at anyone who's basing their understanding of the law on the guidance only.

So long as you're theoretically open to lesbians who identify as men, you're being entirely inclusive of all females and not discriminating based on trans status.

Legal Feminist website is worth a look - they are v hot on this sort of thing.

You could let them know that you don't have any problem with transgender people, and that transmen who are attracted to women are welcome as they are female.

I'm not sure how well it would go down.

Can you say who the funding group is?

hi MuthaFunka, I wish you all the best with your group.

You may find that the funding group (as pp says may well have been given misinformation on the EA2010 by Stonewall) also may well have received it from the EHCR (now under new management) who have an awful track record for lying about the fact that Single Sex exemptions are absolutely allowed under the EA2010.

The usual approach is to conflate the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment with the pc of Sex and claim that GR allows you to use the facilities/services/groups of the 'acquired' sex - it doesn't.

They may also have received information from the Government Equalities Office who recently told me that a) single sex exemptions can be used where necessary (I'm paraphrasing) and b) transgender people can select the facilities/service they use according to their 'gender'.
I have written back to them to request further clarification on these directly contradictory statements but just so you are aware the sources of misinformation on the EA2010 are numerous.

You are probably also aware that the relevant protected characteristic for your purpose is Sex (and as pp says, prob Sexual Orientation), not gender - many organisations have been advised that the pc is gender which is obviously very different (and undefined) to Sex.

Hope that all makes sense, all the best

This is a great idea and so needed. Groups like this are very rare.

The EA states there needs to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim to explicitly exclude trans women.

You say the group is for older lesbians? Therefore I suggest 'officially' making it a discussion group for menopausal lesbians. Open to all pre, post and those going through menopause.

Now you have a proportional means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Best of luck with it. I'd be interested in joining so if you'd welcome a lesbian member from here please PM me the details

It sounds so simple when you put it like that, Sappho, but I have seen male trans people describe not getting their hormones as experiencing menopause.

Sorry to sound cynical, but there's always someone playing silly buggers, and this shit needs anticipating.

TyroTerf yes you're right that could happen, but I think the members would be legally within their rights to steer trans women in the direction of a trans specific support group where they would be able to have discussions with people who understood what they were going through.

The irony is there are loads of trans community groups around which are only for trans members. Ive found lesbian community groups are increasingly expected to not only be of inclusive of trans women but to centre them.

Are they trans specific, or trans-only sex-specific, Sappho? Not sure I phrased that well. Groups just for male trans people or just female trans people; or groups just for trans people of either sex?

Cos if it's the latter, that suggests that a group can legitimately restrict access based on a protected characteristic (that isn't sex). Although I was under the impression that sex is a bit of a special case in that respect.

And if it's the former, then I would think that if you can legitimately split by sex within a protected characteristic, then that bodes well for OP's group - which is for female lesbians only, not male lesbians. As it were. Though if she can say that with a straight face I'll be well impressed.

Make sure you include all the other (actually relevant) protected characteristics in your answers too - it’ll demonstrate that you do plan to be very inclusive and in fact, you have actively considered the additional needs of disabled lesbians, BAME lesbians, lesbians who have religious beliefs (or who have been raised in families with religious beliefs), pregnant lesbians, lesbians of all ages and female homosexuals who don’t presently identify as lesbians and instead have the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ (ie trans men).

Good luck!

As far as I'm aware, most community groups are expected to include minorities but it is legitimate for minority groups to be exclusive.

For example it's fine to have a black women's group but it's not okay to have a white women's group.

It is therefore fine for the OP's group to be just for lesbians but it wouldn't be okay to have a women's group that excluded lesbians.

See what I mean?

As trans people are a minority group it is expected most community groups will be inclusive unless theres a specific reason that falls under the EA exceptions.

Thanks so much there's some great info which I'll read thoroughly tomorrow.

I've a dog who wakes at 6 for his breakfast and I need my 8 hours. Anyone who knows Labs'll know that they act like it's the end of the world if they don't get their food on time.

Night all and thanks again.

@SapphosRock. I'll pm you tomorrow for a chat

Makes sense, Sappho. Always figured it ought to be that way, but wasn't sure where the law stood.

I predict future dickering over whether male 'lesbians' are a minority subgroup of lesbians. Suggested pre-emptive strike: the group is for females who are female-attracted, as these are a minority subgroup of all female-attracted people.

Sounds like splitting hairs, but we're up against a lot of linguistic trickery generally, which means phrasing matters. The undermining of 'lesbian' is well underway but female still has legal meaning that corresponds to reality, which makes it a safer bet, linguistically speaking.

Under the Equality Act you need to have a reason to make it single sex (in order to be able to exclude men) which includes allowing you to exclude all men without a GRC (including transwomen without a GRC). You need a separate (better)reason to exclude transwomen who do have a GRC from the group. This may be more difficult in your kind of group. You need to look at the legislation and accompanying guidance.

I hope you get the funding without any obstacles, OP. Please let us know the outcome.

Also worth contacting the excellent LGB Alliance OP - they will doubtless be able to give you chapter and verse on this one. Good luck.

I'll echo what MerchedCymru said.

Contact LGB Alliance. This is exactly why they have been set up. To protect, promote and support homonsexual interests.

The Law is that a Lesbian is a same sex attracted female.

Also this. You are inclusive of all types of homosexual women (lesbians) regardless of colour, ethnicity, disability etc

Make sure you include all the other (actually relevant) protected characteristics in your answers too - it’ll demonstrate that you do plan to beveryinclusive and in fact, you have actively considered the additional needs of disabled lesbians, BAME lesbians, lesbians who have religious beliefs (or who have been raised in families with religious beliefs), pregnant lesbians, lesbians of all ages and female homosexuals who don’t presently identify as lesbians and instead have the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ (ie trans men)

^homosexual