Is the Culture War lost? Sarah Haider and Ayaan Hirsi Ali

[NonnyMouse1337]

Not exactly related to feminism, but we do touch on these topics often in various threads.

I actually think it's a lovely, thoughtful exchange between two intelligent and articulate women. Often we tend to see men weighing in their lofty thoughts on all sorts of topics. I found it quite refreshing to read this exchange between two women from different sides of the political spectrum. I have to admit I often feel like Sarah does, but it was comforting in a way to read Ayaan's responses. I hope she is right.

letter.wiki/conversation/930

I do admire both of them for their achievements.

So many very good, well explained points on both sides, a most interesting read! Thank you for sharing that.

This is wonderful. Two intelligent, honest women with wide knowledge of world cultures and with their eyes open. They're clear that wokeism is a religion-like ideology, though they differ in their responses.

At its core, this ideology is a delegitimization project—and it targets the very foundations of humanist, Enlightenment values. Wokeism ... [exploits] the same programming that makes us vulnerable to religion. It has achieved astounding success because it has also managed to neutralize liberals, who might otherwise stand against religious impulses, by hijacking our caring instinct, and by ruthlessly exploiting social dynamics to crush dissent.

As an example of wokeism, they quote a Professor of Creative Writing and Inclusion in the Arts who says she is often invited to take part in debates but always refuses because debate is an imperialist capitalist white supremacist cis heteropatriarchal technique that transforms a potential exchange of knowledge into a tool of exclusion & oppression.

Hilarious, yes, you couldn't make it up. But it gives a chilling insight into the closed and shuttered minds of #NoDebate.

Great article, thanks for sharing.

Thanks this is a perceptive and intelligent discussion.

Excellent

Brilliant and articulates so much of what I am feeling as I watch my friends all conform and fall under the spell.

Only skim read (really need to get some sleep tonight!) but these types of dialogues are why I read this section despite disagreeing with many aspects of modern feminism.

I was saying on another thread only last week how it is almost impossible to criticise Islam as a religion without being called a bigot, much like being gender critical. Admittedly, there are many racists out there, possibly emboldened by the popularity of people like Trump, but IMO any religion in which 50% of participants believe homosexuality should be an imprisonable offence is one which is worth reflecting on, not least because one has to wonder what type of future demographic it is creating.

Until last week, I have never even been given one reason as to why Islam is off bounds for criticism. Instead, I've just been called 'racist' (is Islam a race?) or more often reported and had my posts deleted by admin. The reason I was given last week was that 'religion carries association with race', which is no doubt true, yet I don't think that's a good enough reason not to discuss it as long as outright racism isn't displayed.

It is an interesting but somewhat depressing read. The point is made that you actually only require a minority to change society, as was the case in Iran - is concerning.

The majority of people don’t support wokeism, but they don’t say anything about it, which means it continues to gain power.

The majority of people don’t support wokeism, but they don’t say anything about it, which means it continues to gain power.

Well, as they say "all that is required for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing".

Slightly dramatic but pretty much on point.

There are some differences between it and a religion. People who are members of a religion are usually upfront about it, which at least gives you the possibility of saying that you are not and them acknowledging theirs is one of a number of belief systems.

People who believe in wokeism generally won’t admit that they have a specific belief system. They instead claim this is just how the world is and rather than you having a different belief system you are just not educated enough about their beliefs - the only real ones.

Which is why religion is actually a tempting alternative, because you can at least then say I believe something different to wokeism because I am a Christian/Jew/Hindu etc, and they might accept that.

I'm just glad that I work in an industry pretty much impenetrable to wokeism (trucking). I hear stuff daily that would never be tolerated in a million years in most offices, most of it firmly tongue in cheek.

Until last week, I have never even been given one reason as to why Islam is off bounds for criticism. Instead, I've just been called 'racist' (is Islam a race?) or more often reported and had my posts deleted by admin. The reason I was given last week was that 'religion carries association with race', which is no doubt true, yet I don't think that's a good enough reason not to discuss it as long as outright racism isn't displayed.

The only woke ways one can criticise religious tenets is either by limiting the criticism to (right-wing?) Christianity or by including all religions in the criticisms to exactly the same degree.

The latter means that it is close to impossible to point out real quantitative and even qualitative differences between, say, the three largest religions in the numbers of restrictions they assign to women vs. men. All religions must be viewed equally bad for women.

It's a bit like the way some online activists argue that because both men and women can be violent there is no additional risk from men even though they commit most violent crimes.

Sometimes a writer can critique the misogyny in her own (non-Christian) religion, but even that is a very risky move.

I think the treatment the quote above describes is because progressives and liberal feminists are terrible at addressing cases where one oppressed group oppresses another group, so the problem is magicked away by ranking the oppression types in importance.

Sexism comes last unless it is in a clearly intersectional context where the victim(s) stand in the intersection of more types of oppression than the perpetrator(s).

I think the treatment the quote above describes is because progressives and liberal feminists are terrible at addressing cases where one oppressed group oppresses another group, so the problem is magicked away by ranking the oppression types in importance.

Indeed. It sometimes seems to me that for some of the woke it's almost as simple as white=corrupt/privileged, black=virtuous/oppressed.

I'm sure none would admit to such, but it's certainly an almost unfathomable situation whereby they get so pissy about people criticising a group where literally 50% of proponents when surveyed say homosexuality should be illegal.

Although not a race, I'm sure some people are being racist when they complain about 'Muslims taking over' etc, but I've been reported before just for literally saying I'm dubious about Islam due to it's view on gay people. The mind boggles.

Although not a race, I'm sure some people are being racist when they complain about 'Muslims taking over' etc, but I've been reported before just for literally saying I'm dubious about Islam due to it's view on gay people. The mind boggles.

The solution to that is to make a distinction between anti-Muslim bigotry and valid criticism of Islam in a manner similar to how Christianity is critiqued. The latter addresses the tenets of the religion, not the characteristics of those who were born to it or adopted it later in life.

@Stripesnomore

There are some differences between it and a religion. People who are members of a religion are usually upfront about it, which at least gives you the possibility of saying that you are not and them acknowledging theirs is one of a number of belief systems.

People who believe in wokeism generally won’t admit that they have a specific belief system. They instead claim this is just how the world is and rather than you having a different belief system you are just not educated enough about their beliefs - the only real ones.

Which is why religion is actually a tempting alternative, because you can at least then say I believe something different to wokeism because I am a Christian/Jew/Hindu etc, and they might accept that.

This!

This is great - thank you for sharing.

Bumping this thread up again as there are now 5 letters in this conversation between Haider and Ali, the most recent from a few days ago.

Thank you for posting--it's really interesting.