So this came to the school I work in....

[ooherrmissus14]

I was expecting it to be promoting the transgender movement but was quite surprised it wasn't!! Interesting to see this perspective being shared with schools x

@WTFSeriously

Oh look, someone else has a picture of the same letter the OP (who hasn't returned 🤔) posted a picture of.

Mimmymum tweet

Gosh, I'm incredibly shocked.

Mimmy objects to stuff that's "anti-science"?

It's like a smashing script for some mad, absurdist comedy.

This thread is really odd.

As deacon says, this stuff is all well trodden in the USA.

It's upsetting to me that they are using the trans issue as an 'in' to schools.

It also bothers me that the issue with fundamentalist schools is being brushed under the carpet 'oh we're not talking about that'.

Here's a link if anyone is interested.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/accelerated-christian-education-christian-fundamentalist-schools-are-teaching-girls-they-must-obey-men-a7066751.html

Anyone who thinks that the whole intelligent design/ oh but there's no proof god doesn't exist/ evolution is just a theory so others should be taught etc

Is at least naive and at worst disingenuous to say oh what's the harm and all the other stuff from some on this thread.

Maybe some of you live in areas without so many fundamentalist groups and schools and so don't have as much understanding of what can and does happen when scripture is put on an equal footing as science/ or promoted as the truth full stop.

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

.. I don't think anyone could accuse the Salvation Army of being right wing!..

In the past haven't they said some questionable things about the LGB community?

Does anyone know if they have said anything about T?

But that is not a left wing/right wing thing. Not everything falls onto that political spectrum. Just as transgenderists sit at both extremes.

NiceGerbil why are you obsessed with the thought that this subject might present an 'in' for Christianity into schools. When nearly all schools in the uk are Christian and are required to have a daily act of worship that is broadly Christian (unless they apply for an exemption and make them multifaith instead)?

I'm not obsessed.
I know plenty about religion in schools in the UK it's something I'm really interested in.

The things on their website shout USA style creationist loons.

I'm not interested. They can fuck right off.

Your statement that the fact there is no proof that God doesn't exist so the theory he created everything is up there with evolution tells me everything I need to know tbh.

No comment on that link about the Christian schools I note.

There have been big issues with some Jewish schools as well.

"No comment on that link about the Christian schools I note."

Because it contains nothing of substance to comment on, unfortunately. Vague allegations from a few former pupils, a couple of screenshots from textbooks that even The Independent could only say 'were reportedly used'. Lots and lots of 'it is claimed,' 'allegedly', 'reportedly'...

The comments were interesting though. Have you read through them, @NiceGerbil? Several former pupils and parents saying the article is inaccurate and biased: "I think the article is full of untruths and it is disappointing that the Independent would run such a poorly written article! I am a secondary school teacher now and see the benefit of pupils having quiet times and a chance to work independently, something that rarely happens at a state school. By the way, we also had plenty of time to socialise and work together too! I was taught to respect other people’s beliefs and values and that men and women should honour and love one another. I also found it hilarious that the article said there are few photos of the schools because they are so secretive. Happy to share photos of my school with anyone who’d like to see! While the quality of this article barely deserves a response, I did feel that a comment from a person who went to this school and had something positive to say would bring a bit more balance."

Such schools are rare in the UK, even according to the article, and the article fails to produce any definitive evidence of what happens in them. IMO it adds nothing useful to this thread.

And the Jewish schools with the same issues?

If you think the Christian sect who have their own school in my area are providing good teaching etc you're bonkers.

I think that some on here really don't understand about all this, possibly because they live in areas with less fundamental religious communities.

I find it interesting that the Christian thing is dismissed out of hand. Even if it's one school it's one school too many. The implication that the ex students might not be on the level is a strange reaction, to me.

@Aesopfable

NiceGerbil why are you obsessed with the thought that this subject might present an 'in' for Christianity into schools. When nearly all schools in the uk are Christian and are required to have a daily act of worship that is broadly Christian (unless they apply for an exemption and make them multifaith instead)?

You have already invented "Church of Scotland " and "Free Church" schools- which do not exist.There is no requirement in Scottish schools for a daily act of worship. I can only speak for the schools I and my son went to, although his was private and mine was state they were both schools where one in at Primary 1(aged 5) and stayed until Secondary 6 (18) At my primary we had 30 minutes RE per week. It was largely Bible stories Old and New Testament. This did not continue at Secondary. At Secondary we had a weekly assembly which had a couple of hymns , a brief bible reading, a brief talk by one of the 3 local ministers and the rest was school news and business. Son's experience much the same but with far more of telling them about other faiths and an annual carol service in St.Giles (my school made do with a much less grand venue)

I attach a link with more details so you can perhaps avoid making more incorrect declarations about education in the UK.

www.gov.scot/publications/curriculum-for-excellence-religious-observance/

In England there has to be a daily act of worship which is broadly Christian in nature. There in an exemption that schools of other faiths can apply for, so the daily act of worship is in the relevant religion.

I've never heard of the multi denominational exception mentioned upthread, although I haven't looked at the rules in a while to be fair.

In practice many schools don't adhere to this at all, and Ofsted have said they aren't going to check up on it.

As your link says in Scotland religious observations should take place several times a year (instead of daily in England and Wales, with exceptions) and draw on the ‘Christian tradition’. Often delivered by local ministers. Furthermore many councils in Scotland have religious (generally Christian) representation on their education committees.

I cannot comment if specific schools I do not know but for there to be unsatisfactory schools in the independent sector is hardly new or surprising. Nor is it the preserve of religion. Educational ideologies have produced some odd ideas and treatment of children in the absence of any religious input. As have non-religious/atheist private schools.

But my point was if Christians wished to find their way into school then all they need to do is offer to do their religious observation or worship. They do not need to produce what are reasonably well researched information materials and DVDs on a matter that they would otherwise not be concerned about in order to sneak in undercover.

many non-denominational schools in Scotland are partnered with the Church of Scotland though in so far as the pupils go to Church of Scotland churches for services and the minister visits the school for religious observance which is a statutory requirement - or has that changed recently? I really don’t think they are completely non-denominational.

"Why does the origin of the belief matter so much, in this particular context of safeguarding children, if the content of our belief is the same?"

'This is an interesting point and one I've been wondering over the years (e.g. if you believe "abortion is wrong because I feel it is wrong" and someone else believes "abortion is wrong because God says so" are they essentially the same belief? What distinguishes a religious belief from other beliefs?)

There was a bit of discussion here, see Caro's post
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3944700-Squeamish-about-far-right-hangers-on'

@DeaconBoo yes I remember this thread, and Caro's post towards the end is a very helpful articulation of some of what I've been reaching towards in this one.

With thanks to @Carowiththegoodhair, who said it better than I:

"But when it comes to the gender debate/sex work/surrogacy it's a shame that we can't all work together for the common good, without the mistrust. I'm personally very grateful for those individuals who have been able to see beyond their personal prejudice and antipathy, and also for the friendships I've made with those who couldn't disagree with me more on some of these things.

We're not hangers-on either, but people with an equal stake in society and some of us have been talking about this issue for a number of years now, long before it was quite as febrile as it is now. "

Now this is way out of my area of knowledge, but there is still sectarianism in Scotland I think? Scottish posters will be able to comment way better on this than me. So when it comes to Christianity in schools, in some areas, maybe there are certain additional considerations.

Would be really interested to hear from Scots posters on that.

As for 'Educational ideologies have produced some odd ideas and treatment of children in the absence of any religious input. As have non-religious/atheist private schools.'...

Erm... My background is RC and I'm fairly sure there have been more than a few questions about their schools, treatment of children etc... Easy to miss I suppose it wasn't big news or anything.

@DotBall

An absolutely barking Christian Creationist group. I wouldn’t be promoting their extreme views. (ex-Head of PSHE)

Just looked at their website to see who they were and they go on about the controversy of Darwinism in science without saying what the controversy is. I wondered if this was their angle!

@KatySun

many non-denominational schools in Scotland are partnered with the Church of Scotland though in so far as the pupils go to Church of Scotland churches for services and the minister visits the school for religious observance which is a statutory requirement - or has that changed recently? I really don’t think they are completely non-denominational.

The small town I lived in had 2 Church of Scotland churches and a Scottish Episcopalian Church. Their ministers took turn about to deliver a short talk at weekly assembly. The school attended a Christmas, but not an Easter service at one of the 2 Church of Scotland churchs each year (the Episcopalian Church was too small)

I don't honestly know if my son's school had visiting ministers- I don't recall him mentioning it. They also only attended a church for a Christmas service.

Someone asked about sectarianism- I honestly don't know how big a thing it is now. My family were northeast (very lapsed) Catholics (i.e. Catholics who never converted rather than of Irish background). I honestly had no idea what my husband (Glaswegian) was on about when he talked about Sectarianism as it's a Glasgow/West coast thing.

There are Catholic schools in Scotland but they are very much a minority but beyond that there are no church schools. Scotland doesn't have anything the set up of parents having to pretend to be religious to get their children into a good school as seems to be commonplace in England.

I have been an atheist from around age 7 when it struck me, in an RE, class, that I didn't find it believable. I don't recall however finding the RE/school assemblies at all oppressive or preaching. My recollection is it was done with a pretty light touch and an emphasis on kindness. That was mid 60s to late 70s. That's the same approach my son's school took, but he was also taught about other faiths and what they believed.

Dido yes, the children at the non-denominational school where I am go to the local Church of Scotland for services. I have no idea whether the Episcopalian minister attends the school as my children went to the Catholic primary (although we are not Catholic).

Regarding Sectarianism, I think it must depend on where you are. I do remember colleagues making comments when they found out my children went to a Catholic school but the children themselves were not excluded in any way from anything at school by not being Catholic (aside from the Sacrament and Confirmation preparation which was done mainly out of school). Both had a good range of friends and have done well. DD is applying to study theology, but she insists this is nothing to do with her primary education. She is agnostic (I think that is the right word).

“School Standards and Framework Act 1998” requires schools to provide daily worship and ”the required collective worship shall be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.“

So that's why I was forced to sing hymns and listen to people talk about the bible in lower school as kid even though the school wasn't denominational. I hated it so much even back then.

Was it an ideology or belief that you personally just couldn't agree with?

@CrazyPigeonLadyMarried2Trans

“School Standards and Framework Act 1998” requires schools to provide daily worship and ”the required collective worship shall be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.“

So that's why I was forced to sing hymns and listen to people talk about the bible in lower school as kid even though the school wasn't denominational. I hated it so much even back then.

I didn't mind this at all. There are quite a few hymns I like as music anyway. I was always interested in mythology so I suppose in hindsight I treated it as that. In any case Christianity is part of UK society and culture so knowing something about it is not a bad thing. I suppose I'd describe myself as Douglas Murray does as a "cultural Christian"

School is always going to have elements which individuals hate. I'd take singing a couple of hymns once a week and listening to bland but generally kind and well- intentioned sermon by a local minister over the horror of 4 hours compulsory PE any day.

I hated PE too. My secondary school became a sports college and had PE all but one day of the week. In the end I 'lost' my PE kit and just sat to the side reading manga. Much more interested in art which up to GCSE there was only one lesson a week of.

Even as a young child there was something about Christianity that didn't sit right with me. I would feel this empty pit open in my stomach when my Nan would say 'God Bless' after tucking me in. When I was very small I would refer to Jesus as 'she' because a strong and kind person had to be female in my eyes. It wasn't until I heard my mum's hippy witchy friend talking about getting her Dragons Blood incense for spells on an upcoming trip to Glastonbury and then going there that I realised what was calling out to me. I started on the path of Paganism which has been helped a lot with the support of my partner who's mother is a medium.

I'm also interested in mythology and folklore and just a few days ago corrected my manager on what a Banshee was. He thought it was a type of Mexican outlaw, but I told him its an Irish ghost that screams.