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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Forensic medicine Bill Scotland

64 replies

fatblackcatspaw · 07/11/2020 19:34

There at it again! Moves to make it impossible for women victims of sexual violence to requst a female doctor.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18852360.agenda-new-bill-must-not-conflate-sex-gender/?ref=twtrec

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Byebyetrump · 08/11/2020 11:36

Having been involved in the (non-forensic) medical care of sexual assault survivors - I just wanted to note that male survivors often also will express a preference to be examined by females. By default, in the service where I work, sexual assault survivors are assigned to the care of female practitioners unless requesting otherwise. But we don't have any trans practitioners. Yet.

I'm not in Scotland, but it's stuff like this - and the discovery of this board! - that has making me seriously consider undertaking forensic exam training. (I'm a bona fide cunty woman, fwiw).

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2020 12:08

Well that's the next problematic area Bybyetrump. As part of their aim to increase the number of female examiners the Scottish Government is funding a specialised training course at Queen Margaret's University in Edinburgh. The first course starts in January.

However, ForwomenScot have confirmed that the places on this course are open to all - they are not restricted to females only. And of course they are, as how can the Uni make use of Schedule 9 of the Equality Act to make it a genuine occupation requirement that they be female ie. SEX, when the Forensic Bill says gender!

Byebyetrump · 08/11/2020 12:15

Betsy A scheme to increase the number of female examiners that is not restricted to FEMALE practitioners?? Have I understood you correctly? Shock

fatblackcatspaw · 08/11/2020 12:18

oh feck just when I think it can't get worse it DOES

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WouldBeGood · 08/11/2020 12:25

I’m in Scotland. Why the fuck do they keep doing this?

It’s becoming increasingly clear that there is a strong misogynistic drive in the SNP, and the Greens, and no effective opposition.

I’m going to get on this and write to everyone. Shared the bill to my sm and no one interested 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think people are scared to comment. And also just don’t believe the proposed legislation as it seems so ludicrous.

NeurotrashWarrior · 08/11/2020 12:26

This is beyond fucked up.

Wilfully refusing to correct gender to sex is willfully keeping a safeguarding loophole open.

BetsyM00 · 08/11/2020 12:53

Byebyetrump Yup! Welcome to progressive regressive Scotland.

If people are writing to their MSPs, please ask them to forward your concerns on to Jeane Freeman, Cabinet Secretary for Health. She is named on the Government document which turned down the committee's recommendation for gender to be changed to sex.

wellbehavedwomen · 08/11/2020 12:54

This is saying that when it comes to the intimate vaginal examination of rape victims, their feelings matter less than the feelings of any males who want to intimately examine those rape victims, just as long as those males assert a woman's gender identity.

You'd have to be a complete sociopath to be male, and determined to work with women rape victims who have specified that they only want female provision. Precisely the sort of person, in fact, who has no place in any such role.

Males are prioritised over females, even in this context, as soon as the trans figleaf is applied. It's almost as though they know precisely who is who, and who matters most, isn't it?

wellbehavedwomen · 08/11/2020 13:02

@NeurotrashWarrior

This is beyond fucked up.

Wilfully refusing to correct gender to sex is willfully keeping a safeguarding loophole open.

It's worse than that. It's wilfully changing sex to gender. The recommendation was sex - that's been changed, with deliberate intent. The original wording centred survivors - the new wording in the Bill (whose whole point is to protect survivors from retraumatisation at the hands of male clinicians, after evidence that this causes immense distress) centres transwomen who want to examine them, instead.

And for anyone reading this who assumes that this is never going to happen in practice, and that this claim is an over-wrought over-reaction: you're wrong. And the wording has been deliberately altered to allow this.

fatblackcatspaw · 08/11/2020 13:02

@BetsyM00

Byebyetrump Yup! Welcome to progressive regressive Scotland.

If people are writing to their MSPs, please ask them to forward your concerns on to Jeane Freeman, Cabinet Secretary for Health. She is named on the Government document which turned down the committee's recommendation for gender to be changed to sex.

thanks good suggestion
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Byebyetrump · 08/11/2020 13:14

"You'd have to be a complete sociopath to be male, and determined to work with women rape victims who have specified that they only want female provision. Precisely the sort of person, in fact, who has no place in any such role."

Thank you, wellbehavedwomen. I agree 100%, not just as a woman working on the outskirts of this field, but as an empathetic human being.

I don't even know how I'd feel if I ever encountered a transwoman practitioner who felt that they were suitable for (entitled to?) this role.

Revolted, tbh. /awaits deletion.

GoodyWoolf · 08/11/2020 15:52

Has anyone already emailed their MSP about this who wouldn’t mind sharing their text? I don’t want to copy it as I want it to be personal but a starting point would be really helpful as I’m not as good at these things as some others are!

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 08/11/2020 16:51

It was evidence from Rape Crisis Scotland and some really brave women who shared their stories that convinced the committee that female examiners were of paramount importance.

Yet, while RCS are rightly celebrating that many recommendations have been taken on board, they are saying nothing about this sex/gender issue despite the centrality to the evidence they themselves presented.

It isn't hard to see why. The CEO of RCS was, only a few days ago, threatening to report women for questioning why she was prepared to appoint males to supposedly female only positions in the organisation. She has made it clear that she believes being a woman is wholly dependent on self-id. It's a horrible betrayal.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 08/11/2020 16:56

@persistentwoman

There's a particular type of cruelty in using the law to bully women victims of male rape in this way. It's as if none of these people advocating this have an ounce of insight or compassion. Just vile.
Absolutely this.
MichelleofzeResistance · 08/11/2020 17:25

Females must be forced to meet the validation needs of people born male with the most intimate parts of their body and in situations of the utmost vulnerability, whether they consent or are comfortable to or not. Or else forfeit the right to this medical care.

That is the blunt, unpalatable, awful truth of this agenda which is to the benefit of people born male and in no way to people born female. How can anyone find this morally right?

fatblackcatspaw · 14/11/2020 17:11

@GoodyWoolf

Has anyone already emailed their MSP about this who wouldn’t mind sharing their text? I don’t want to copy it as I want it to be personal but a starting point would be really helpful as I’m not as good at these things as some others are!
heres my text my MSP's are lothian. so amend it if you are in Lothian if outside feel free to copy (my spoll checker doesn't work so check that !)

Forensic Medical Services (Victim of Sexual Offences) (Scotland) Bill

I watched Stage 2 of this bill before the Committee on Parliamentary TV.

I was extremely disappointed to find that none of the amendments delt with the use of 'gender' instead of 'sex’ in the bill, namely the section “medical examination be carried out by a registered medical practitioner of a gender specified by the person."Although the Committee reaffirmed that victims would be able to choose a female nurse or forensic examiner as we know from other bills and an ongoing Judical Review in other cases the Scottish Government has redefined the definition of 'women’ to include men. The use of ‘gender' in the wording makes it possible that a transwoman can be put forward as a medical practitioner when a women victim has asked for services from women.

Women victims of crime already report these crimes at a very low rate due to the trauma of their experience. Without a legal reassurance that they have a right to have a woman (as in adult human female) they will be even less likely to come forward. The ability to request the sex of the nurse and and forensic medical examiner is not only important to women victims but I have heard from women working in this area that many male victims also request a female nurse and forensic medical examiner.

Without this clarity in the bill the result will do nothing to actually help victims of crime. Rape Crisis Scotland already has stated that '“the single most common complaint we hear from survivors of sexual crime about their experience of the forensic examination is lack of access to female doctors”.

I would like to remind you that figures from the Government indicate that One in ten women in Scotland has experienced rape & one in five women in Scotland has had someone try to make them have sex against their will. (Source: Natsal-3: www.gov.scot/Resource/0047/00474316.pdf )

Could you please forward my concerns about conflating 'sex' and 'gender’ in this bill to Jeane Freeman, Cabinet Secretary for Health?

Many thanks for your attention to this matter.

Yours sincerely

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terryleather · 14/11/2020 17:16

Many thanks for posting that fatblackcatspaw, hugely helpful and I shall use it as inspiration.

vesuvia · 14/11/2020 19:02

"members of the committee who are scrutinising the bill have recommended its amendment to say “sex” instead of “gender”. The Government has chosen to disregard this, stating it is “not immediately convinced there is legislative ambiguity"".

Current usage of the word "gender" actually makes it one of the most ambiguous words in the English language. Also, that ambiguity is not trivial - "gender" has been at the heart of some of the most harmful attacks on women's sex-based rights. "Gender" is a key concept in feminism and in transgenderism - with each group often using it differently - Gender can mean e.g. "gender role" or "sex role" or "(biological) sex" or "gender expression" or "gender identity" etc.

Does the Scottish Government even understand what "ambiguity" means? Ambiguity is about a word having different meanings depending on its context, but the Scottish Government gives me the impression that they mistakenly think that the various meanings of gender are the same and interchangeable. In their universe, gender seems to mean "gender identity" which to them also means "sex". That is good news for transgenderism ideology supporters but bad news for gender-critical people (and women's sex-based rights).

fatblackcatspaw · 15/11/2020 13:27

bumpette... going to write to the committee today but need to stock up on medicinal supplies of choc first

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334bu · 15/11/2020 16:21

Have written and received reply thanking me for my views. However, they also included this link to all documents on this bill which you might find useful.

www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/CurrentCommittees/113871.aspx

334bu · 04/12/2020 23:39

Important email from For Women Scotland regarding an amendment to this Bill

**Hello everyone!
An important amendment (Para 28) has been proposed to the Forensic Medical Services Bill which will be debated and voted on by MSPs on the 10th December. At the moment the Bill states that people who have been subjected to rape and sexual assault have the right to choose the "gender" of their medical examiner - the amendment calls for "gender" to be changed to "sex".

"Sex" and "gender" are not interchangeable terms and it is only by using the legally defined term "sex" that individuals undergoing forensic examination can be guaranteed their choice of examiner, and not potentially face further distress and trauma. We hope you will join us in supporting this amendment and contact your MSPs to ask them to vote in favour of it.

Time is very short, so please contact your MSPs today and ask them to support this amendment!

Please remember to contact all seven of your Regional MSPs as well as your Constituency MSP - just put in your postcode HERE to find their email addresses.

It needn't be a long email, a few lines will do. If you wish, you can also explain why this amendment is important to you, or refer your MSPs to our article that was published in the Herald for background information. The full text is given below as this includes the relevant links to supporting evidence.

The Scotsman has also written in detail about the amendment today, see here.

Thank you - together we can make a difference!

Background information - the following is from an article in the Herald on 7th November:

A little talked about Bill on Forensic Medical Services is currently progressing through Parliament which aims to improve conditions for those subjected to rape or sexual assault, allowing for self-referral to a health service for the collection of forensic evidence and deferring any decision to report the crime to the police until a later date. Central to this proposed law is the right for a person to request that the "medical examination be carried out by a registered medical practitioner of a gender specified by the person”. [my emphasis]

With that one word the Scottish Government has once again entered the fray of the self-identification of sex debate, which in this instance would allow male practitioners who declare themselves to be women to be included in the pool of female doctors requested by rape victims. They need not have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate or even made any changes to their appearance.

The cruelty of specifying gender and not sex cannot be underestimated. Evidence given by Rape Crisis Scotland states that "The single most common complaint we hear from survivors of sexual crime about their experience of the forensic examination is lack of access to female doctors."

Traumatised women should not be re-traumatised by unexpectedly encountering a male doctor (regardless of his personal gender) after requesting treatment from a female doctor. Nor should victims feel they must self-exclude from medical services due to uncertainty over being guaranteed a female medical practitioner, or fear accusations of bigotry for making such a request. Unfortunately, numerous such cases have already made the headlines.

To their credit, members of the Committee who are scrutinising the Bill have recommended its amendment to say “sex” instead of “gender”. The Government has chosen to disregard this, stating it is “not immediately convinced there is legislative ambiguity”.

This is a peculiar stance to take as conflation between sex and gender, and the ensuing conflicts between women’s and transgender rights are prominent in other legislation such as the Gender Recognition Act reform and the Census amendment, to the extent they are splitting the SNP down the middle.

What is not in any doubt, is that the term “gender” is not defined in any law. Both Scottish and UK Governments, as well as the Equality and Human Rights Commission, are clear that sex and gender are not synonymous. Sex is defined in the Equality Act as a “reference to a man or a woman”, and a woman as a “female of any age”. The Government has even gone so far as setting up a working group to ensure the two categories remain distinct from each other - which may have been instructive had the pandemic not postponed its work.

In order to train and recruit more female examiners health boards need to be able to use the Genuine Occupational Requirements, which are based on sex, and specified in the Equality Act. Trying to recruit on gender leads to confusing policies which breach sex discrimination laws. Similar ambiguity over gender has already led to health boards reintroducing mixed-sex wards and policies encouraging cross-dressers into female changing rooms.

It is essential the Bill clearly states what it promises to deliver. The wellbeing and recovery of rape victims is paramount and they are entitled to request a female examiner and know that this is exactly what will be provided. This can only be achieved if the correct terminology in law is used. Sex matters.**

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 05/12/2020 00:16

Done thank you 334bu

334bu · 05/12/2020 00:40

Thank you

Dances · 05/12/2020 06:44

I have already documented the trauma of the chikd sexual abuse and sexual assault I have experienced in my response to the Scottish Government's Consultation on the GRA.

I know many other women have done so too. However, this has been completely ignored by the Scottish Government and they continue to push the threat of forcing women to be examined against their will by males who say they are women. And the women will then be told they are committing a hate crime by recognising a male.

Its utter cruelty.

Why are women so badly treated by the Scottish Government?

Why don't we matter?

SophocIestheFox · 05/12/2020 06:52

I’d missed this last month, I’m horrified.

This is saying that when it comes to the intimate vaginal examination of rape victims, their feelings matter less than the feelings of any males who want to intimately examine those rape victims, just as long as those males assert a woman's gender identity.

You'd have to be a complete sociopath to be male, and determined to work with women rape victims who have specified that they only want female provision. Precisely the sort of person, in fact, who has no place in any such role

What wellbehavedwomen says sums it up. Grim.

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