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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The March of Wokeism, Trevor Phillips in The Times

87 replies

Igneococcus · 07/11/2020 07:09

Have not read it fully yet but Trevor Phillips is always worth reading:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dfbee358-2045-11eb-8696-f5d5fcef88fd?shareToken=be75bc761cb78af2c93e38c62b7a0589

OP posts:
Melroses · 07/11/2020 16:19

@queenofknives

Fantastic article. I especially liked this very clear point:

This perfectly sums up the gap between the woke self-image and reality. The woke affect to care for the excluded, yet cannot find room for talented people of colour in their own ranks. They present themselves as passionate campaigners for justice, yet they are ready to yield to the whims of the mob and dole out summary retribution to anyone deemed a heretic. They claim to be the allies of the oppressed, yet have no time to listen to their real priorities. They purport to seek greater diversity, yet require all women or all ethnic minorities to share their view or be branded quislings.

Sex — “the trans debate” — remains a hot issue but race was the principal battleground
I think this is true in a sense, in that race is a key battleground because it also affects men. Sex has not been the principal battleground if you are male and not trans. But I think that he - like so many of the men talking about this stuff - are still failing to see how fundamental the trans issue has been and continues to be - and how the kind of campaigning done by TRAs (#nodebate) has created actual institutional and pseudo-legal inroads into society at the deepest levels, which other wokery are now obviously taking advantage of, but which have been affecting everyone's lives for a long time now. However, he does at least, not quibble over the key point wrt to sex/gender.

I think you are absolutely right here.

He sees the trans issue for what it is, but has written about race because that involves him personally and it is easier to openly talk about. It does give him a chance to explore the thinking.

As you say, the #nodebate and the insiduous lobbying and policy capture at all levels works like a gag and while it works will continue for other groups.

I am glad that he comes back to the gender issues at the end.

BolloxtoGender · 07/11/2020 18:16

@BolloxtoGender

A renewed focus on material reality would help to counter this

^^@igmum. Yes, I’ve been thinking this also, absolutely agree with this and also Integrity, doing the right thing when no one is looking, totally not what virtual signalling is about.

@HecatesCats, yes totally agree about the importance of critical thinking , to get to the objective reality or truth...not just subjective ‘lived experience’ or ‘all ways of knowing are valid’, or ‘2+2 = 5, because 2+2=4 is only true in Western/White ideas (said with sneering contempt) of knowledge and language..which are inherently racist, oppressive and used to up held white supremacy etc. etc.’...Because we are regressing in the direction of the Dark Ages, as if the Enlightenment never happened.

Also need to refocus on being forward looking and going forward constructively, rather than be backward looking in a destructive , retributive way which is what the Woke are doing.

queenofknives · 08/11/2020 10:02

He sees the trans issue for what it is, but has written about race because that involves him personally and it is easier to openly talk about. It does give him a chance to explore the thinking.
Yes. It is easier to openly talk about but I expect this will be the final nail in the cancellation coffin for him. It is a really good article. Saw lots of comments encouraging him to run for political office! Interesting thought.

Also need to refocus on being forward looking and going forward constructively
I agree with this and with the idea that we should also establish practices of doing the right/best thing without reference to an audience on social media etc. I think that social media is a BIG aspect of all of this and people need to see how it is pouring gasoline on all these issues as well as making it impossible for people to work out what the hell is going on. This is maybe where a renewed focus could be most valuable - working to get rid of the current model of SM and big tech's stranglehold on democracy and information.

Tristan Harris is the person who has been pushing forward with this - he was on Joe Rogan recently. It was actually a really scary discussion because of how precarious our democracy was revealed to be. But I think and hope that great clear thinkers like Phillips and others will be able to incorporate those ideas into their worldview too.

Mumfun · 08/11/2020 10:18

Absolutely excellent article. We should always listen to the dissidents of our country as well as of others. Any party worth their salt would be talking to him.

And thanks to the Times for keeping publishing alternative views and staying relevant unlike other papers we could name

MedusasBadHairDay · 08/11/2020 11:20

Some of that was interesting, but I can't agree with the outright dismissal that there is a privilege to being white. Just because poor white people exist, and some people who aren't white are doing better doesn't mean it's not a thing.

HecatesCats · 08/11/2020 11:30

I didn't read it as an outright dismissal of white privilege Medusa. I read it as a criticism of performative wokeness concealing inaction:

I couldn’t care less if middle-class white men stopped saying sorry for having all the money, power and luck, as long as they did a little to redistribute their privilege to people who do not share their sex and race. But practical remedies don’t seem to be on the woke agenda. To a woke activist, victory is getting a white man to admit to his intrinsic awfulness. Sadly, it seems that an increasing number of them are willing to genuflect.

Imnobody4 · 08/11/2020 11:48

'White privilege' is a red herring. The people who use the term are really saying pick on the other guys not me, I'm your ally so you can trust me to retain my power, influence, money.
Black people who use it are just fueling a backlash. It may be true but doesn't really help much.
Progress only happens when we recognise our common humanity.

HecatesCats · 08/11/2020 12:04

'Privilege' is used in numerous contexts to control speech. "Check your privilege" could now be used by white male born person who 'identified' as female, even if they work for a ftse 100 company, against a working class lesbian on benefits as long as that woman was denoted as 'cis'. It's unhelpful to say the least.

RuffleCrow · 08/11/2020 12:23

Great article. I agree 100%. If you have a teen or twentysomething at home, please share this article with thrm as they're unlikely to read The Times.

WeetabixBananaHipsterFFS · 08/11/2020 12:47

I’m thinking about sharing it with my wokey 40-something friend, none of whose wokey inclinations involve them being at the front of the queue for personal sacrifice.

Thingybob · 08/11/2020 14:18

Richard Dawkins (Evolutionary Biologist, Author, Atheist, Humanist) has retweeted this article.

twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1325231273464324096

The March of Wokeism, Trevor Phillips in The Times
BolloxtoGender · 08/11/2020 15:44

ohhh that's quite a clear stand on the science, biology, womens' right side from Dawkins. I thought he wasn't getting himself involved.

BolloxtoGender · 08/11/2020 15:44

stand on the side of science..

DaisiesandButtercups · 08/11/2020 15:49

There was a really good programme on Radio 4 on Wednesday morning about the current situation with race and does the American approach work in the UK. Sorry I don’t know how to link, it was called Across the Red line I believe.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/11/2020 15:50

RD seems to be picking up negative comments from the wokesters - who I doubt have bothered to actually read TPs article. I suspect quite a lot are Americans who haven't a clue who TP is or about the Cambridge porter story he alludes to.

SirSamuelVimes · 08/11/2020 15:51

I would like to see more from Dawkins. He's had death threats from Christians for years, what's a few more from the TRAs? Sadly I think he will stay out of it - no skin in the game.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/11/2020 15:58

Is this the first time Dawkins has openly stood on the anti TRA side?

Thingybob · 08/11/2020 16:08

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Is this the first time Dawkins has openly stood on the anti TRA side?
As far as I know the only other thing he has said was this back in 2015
<span class="italic">Is trans woman a woman? Purely semantic. If you define by chromosomes, no. If by self-identification, yes. I call her "she" out of courtesy.</span>

Richard Dawkins (@RichardDawkins) October 26, 2015

It was in response to Germaine Greer

Blibbyblobby · 08/11/2020 16:55

yes totally agree about the importance of critical thinking , to get to the objective reality or truth...not just subjective ‘lived experience’ or ‘all ways of knowing are valid’, or ‘2+2 = 5, because 2+2=4 is only true in Western/White ideas (said with sneering contempt) of knowledge and language..which are inherently racist, oppressive and used to up held white supremacy etc. etc.’...

I agree with the overall sentiment (and that 2+2 always = 4 unless you redefine the numbers) but I think what's being rejected is not objectivity per se, but rather an illusion of objectivity that actually serves to reinforce the dominant culture.

It may be possible, just about, to make impartial, entirely objective observations, but as soon as any explanation or interpretation is put on the observations, the risk of subjectivity creeps in. And even on the pure observation side, someone first has to make a decision on what is worth observing and that's somewhere that existing values and preconceptions influence the "objective" outcome - as explored in Invisible Women.

There was a really interesting comment by someone recently, I think on FWR, about how blind marking of maths papers improved women's performance, because although the right answer is not subjective, the assessors also make judgements about how elegant or workaday the method chosen is, and they were judging men more favourably than women.

There's also the belief that people emotionally involved in something cannot be objective, and therefore that objectivity requires "no skin in the game". I see it in the debate teams so beloved of public school education, where the ultimate aim is to be able to argue either side without preference or emotion. "This House believes that Hitler was misunderstood". But it's a privilege of the dominant culture to be so insulated from a controversial topic that you can argue either side because neither side hurts you or the people you care about.

This illusion of objectivity benefits the dominant group because their narrative and focus becomes the default, neutral position, so they believe themselves to be genuinely neutral and objective and the fact that their analysis tend to lead to conclusions that are good for the dominant group just justifies that their dominance is deserved, while the people most affected by something are the ones whose voices count the least because they cannot be dispassionate about it.

I'm sure we've all come across blokes who will helpful point out that any particular instance of sexism is "not necessarily sexist actually" with a convoluted non-sexist scenario posited to justify it. The fact that it's experienced not as a one off but as one instance of a repeating pattern makes the non-sexist explanation vanishingly unlikely but that's invisible to someone without "skin in the game", so the very fact that we experience sexism is used as a reason to dismiss our ability to consider it objectively.

So, I do believe in the ideal of objectivity as something to strive for. I think of it as a process where you continually challenge your "objective" conclusions by thinking "if I wasn't me, would I think this? What sort of person would reject this and on what grounds would they challenge it? Are those grounds valid?", and through that you uncover and challenge your own preconceptions and hopefully move closer to an objective analysis.

However, I think if you ever get to a point where you believe you have achieved objectivity, you have almost certainly lost it.

BolloxtoGender · 08/11/2020 17:16

Blibby I see what you are trying to say, and I don’t think we disagree (as I didn’t say ‘objectivity’), this is the point where if we take this discussion any further, it’s a philosophical rabbit hole that goes no where very useful for the purposes of this discussion, or at least it will be beyond my skills of language and ability to articulate meaning and for you to receive meaning as i intend.

CrocusPocus · 08/11/2020 17:24

What a great article. I was reminded when reading it of a young woman I saw on the news after the recent UK election. She was a medical student (I think) with an accent that suggested a certain amount of privilege, who had campaigned for Corbyn and was shouting at the interviewer about how fucking stupid (that's a quote) the working class voters were for voting the wrong way. She in turn reminded me of Victorian reformers- happy to do good turns in return for the right kind of behaviour from those they were helping.

BolloxtoGender · 08/11/2020 17:28

I remEmber, the posh activitist who wished the new PM death by grease 🔥 or something, yes the ‘anti fascist ‘ .

BolloxtoGender · 08/11/2020 17:30

I love Titania

IDanielRadcliffe · 08/11/2020 17:50

Yes I remember her: “faaack Boraas, I hate him!”

wellbehavedwomen · 08/11/2020 18:20

One of the comments:

It's popular among white middle class kids because it is just a power grab by the middle classes threatened by the expansion of higher education. The main reason working class kids drop out of uni is social exclusion so if you set up the culture to be based around complex, ever changing beliefs which often go directly against clearly observable reality then you are going to exclude those with more varied points of view, experiences or who simply haven't been trained in politeness and telling PC white lies from childhood.

I'm afraid I agree with this completely. It's not conscious at all - but the giddy feeling of being in the right club, and 'on the right side of history' veils the reality, which is espousal of luxury beliefs. That's not to deny that racism exists - but critical race theory centres white people feeling terribly good about how guilty they feel, and not solutions. It's a cost-free movement, in reality, and it entrenches snobbery under a veneer of virtue.

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