CALL FOR ACTION Women&Equalities committee calling for evidence on GRA reform - again?!?

[Cwenthryth]

committees.parliament.uk/call-for-evidence/291/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act?fbclid=IwAR2OBw5dDqd0oWBzQrZOjcxb7N0S34f_rEWw7QVnOuzeQfI55co_w0CvFsc
Not quite sure why they’re asking all these same questions again, but looks like we all have more homework to do!

The MPs hearing the oral GRA evidence in the sessions...

Women and Equalities Committee current 11 members:

Rt Hon Caroline Nokes MP Conservative Romsey and Southampton North Chair

Sara Britcliffe MP Conservative Hyndburn

Theo Clarke MP Conservative Stafford

Elliot Colburn MP Conservative Carshalton and Wallington

Angela Crawley MP Scottish National Party Lanark and Hamilton East

Alex Davies-Jones MP Labour Pontypridd

Peter Gibson MP Conservative Darlington

Kim Johnson MP Labour Liverpool, Riverside

Kate Osborne MP LabourJarrow

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP Labour Streatham

Nicola Richards MP Conservative West Bromwich East

Session from 2015: parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/15db70eb-8e9a-4a29-82ee-78a13d802802
Witnesses: Susie Green, Chair, Mermaids, Anna Lee, Vice President, Welfare and Community, Lancaster University Students’ Union, Dr Ashley Miller, Senior Clinical Psychologist, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, and Dr Jay Stewart, Director, Gendered Intelligence

@AnyOldPrion @Chattylion
I have already asked re confidentiality, as I think it's a valid concern- women getting rape/ job/ death threats, transpeople wanting privacy etc. This is the reply I have received from the Committee (nb the member of staff has helpfully added her pronouns- she/her' !).
She says
'You can request that your submission be kept confidential. However we cannot guarantee that your submission would not be published... People should only submit evidence if they wish to do so under the terms of the inquiry. If you only wish to submit evidence with a guarantee of confidentiality they we would advise you not to submit.'

From what I understand there are 2 levels of confidentiality- one is name not being published, the 2nd is your whole submission not published. I would think name confidentiality will be respected with such delicate subject matter but I would assume submissions may be more likely public??There is a box to tick. Maybe someone else with more expertise can advise?

The rest of the time females can feel as upset and traumatised and excluded as they like and no one cares.

Or accuse them of obsession and hysteria, of being 'vile' - the same old gaslighting women have always been subjected to.

This is the reply I have received from the Committee (nb the member of staff has helpfully added her pronouns- she/her' !).

I find it extremely troubling that members of the committee seem (and in Caroline Noakes case are) very biased towards gender ideology. I have no trust in them to look at this in a partisan nor fair manner. I feel they will be dismissive to G woman's views.

This troubles me too, especially after reading Caroline Nokes' article in the Times yesterday. I am surprised to see that a committee chair - whose role I assume is to ensure submissions are dealt with impartially - would be so comfortable nailing her colours to the mast.

Watermonster thank you very much for enquiring.

Apparently the Women and Equalities select committee could give more assurances about this IF they think its ‘personal’ or ‘sensitive’ info that is likely to be submitted. Seems unbelievable the women and equalities select committee appear not to think it would be.. but frankly they seem pretty amateurish, so fortunately there seems to be another overarching Commons office to appeal to about this. This other office says:

What if I don't want my name or my evidence to be published?
We usually publish evidence, because it’s important that the public can see the information the Committee has considered in its inquiry and who wrote it. But if there is an important reason why your evidence should be anonymous or confidential, tell us.

You may want your evidence to be anonymous—meaning we’ll publish your evidence, but not your name or details that could identify you.

You may want your evidence to be confidential—meaning we’ll read your evidence but we won’t publish it.

If you want either of these things, tick the box on the website to say so when you are sending it to us. Please explain at the start of your evidence why you are asking for this.

We can’t guarantee that this will happen, because the Committee has the power to decide whether evidence is kept anonymous or confidential.

Sometimes the call for evidence will say whether or not the Committee will accept anonymous or confidential evidence for that inquiry. This is more likely when the subject is personal or sensitive.

You can contact us before you send your evidence if you have any questions about this.

More info on contacting them here:
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/written-evidence-guidance.htm

Not promising that requests for anonymity or confidentiality will be respected is an incredibly significant barrier, not just for women wanting to submit evidence defending sex-based rights, but for trans people who may not be out as well. How will they know you’re using your real name though? Can anyone submit evidence or only UK citizens, are they checked against electoral roll etc? What’s to prevent this being flooded by multiple submissions by the same person under different names?

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

TeaPoweredScientist Slightly concerned about how enforcing of single-sex spaces sometimes ends up throwing butch lesbians under the bus (since we're seen as not looking feminine enough to belong & are also challenged)

I am not a butch lesbian, but I have a deep voice and generally wear men's jeans and have been mistaken for one occasionally. I have also been challenged about using a women's lavatory.

I don't see a problem here. As far as I was concerned the onus was on me to say that I'm not a man, not on all women to be compelled trustingly to assume I am not a male however I may present. The trick is probably not taking offence where none is intended.

(It didn't do me anything like as much harm as being sexually assaulted by a male did.)

Okay, let's play this out. You or I enter a women's lavatory, with our short hair and our deep voices and our men's jeans. A stranger challenges us. We respond, "I'm a woman, this is where I pee."

What happens next? Does that stranger take us at our word & let us use the toilet? That's self-identification, and with far fewer legal barriers than anything that's ever been proposed for the GRA.

Or perhaps the onus is on us to "prove" our womanhood, if our word isn't enough? So, should we start carrying around copies of our birth certificates so we can show them to anyone who challenges our presence? That's dystopian as all hell, and also reveals my (rather uncommon) full name to a potentially-homophobic stranger who might use this information to stalk, threaten or harass me. If we don't want to present our papers before we're allowed to relieve ourselves, then what? Should we submit to strip searches to prove our sex? That's demeaning at best & traumatising at worst, but hey, maybe our mental health is considered an acceptable casualty in the quest to make sure that no penises enter the ladies' room?

And remember, whichever "solution" you choose for us, you have to also apply to the trans woman who comes into the bathroom an hour or so after us, and who also responds to any challenges with "I'm a woman, this is where I pee".

I feel I can't submit anything because of the chance my name would be published. I just can't get past that.

blimey, another toilet obsessive

I'd have said, off the top of my head that the following are all more interesting and relevant to talk about

1. men competing in women's sport
2. men using women's single sex hospital wards
3. men taking women's places on all women shortlists and training courses intended specifically for women
4. Women prisoners being locked up with male rapists
5. scarce women's aid resources being diverted to men
6. a woman finding a male nurse rocked up to do her smear and being accused of bigotry when she objected
7. school girls being forced to share changing rooms with boys
8. men using women's single sex sleeping accommodation (looking at you YHA)

but by all means, let's talk about men using women's toilets

surely you've heard of Katie Dolatowski, the man who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl when he was using women's toilets in a super market?

because that's what happens when you normalise men using women's single sex provision

If we want to talk about men using women's toilets, we could talk about my ex colleague who 'transitioned' for a year or so and merrily went into the women's toilets in my work place, until he was asked not to because he kept making inappropriate comments while he was in there

after a year, he very sensibly desisted, so what sex was he while he was in the women's loo? do you think it was OK for him to assume he was welcome there?

I do love watching people make what is in fact very simple into a hill they will die on trying to complicate it.

Having met someone externally typically masculine with a beard and known from the second they smiled and said good morning what sex they were - and felt my entire body relax since someone of that sex in an isolated place approaching me has never so far in my life ever led to any cause for alarm and countless times in positive experiences - I don't think this potential misreading or anxiety on sight will last much beyond some basic interaction. Female socialisation also frequently means females care about other females being anxious by their presence and generally speaking tend not to react with taking selfies with a sword, for a random example. I may be wrong about that, please anyone with screenshots do correct me.

@TeaPoweredScientist

Or perhaps the onus is on us to "prove" our womanhood, if our word isn't enough? So, should we start carrying around copies of our birth certificates so we can show them to anyone who challenges our presence? That's dystopian as all hell, and also reveals my (rather uncommon) full name to a potentially-homophobic stranger who might use this information to stalk, threaten or harass me.

That's exactly what some gender critical groups want, as Fair Play For Women explain here: fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/

"It’s a well established custom in the UK that people use the changing rooms appropriate to their sex. However, in order to uphold your lawful policy of providing women with a female-only changing room it may sometimes be necessary for staff to deny access to a male person. We instinctively know who’s male and female simply by looking which makes it quick and easy for staff to spot if a male person enters a female changing room.

To uphold your single-sex changing room policy you can reserve the right for staff to discreetly ask for additional information before using the service you are providing. The only legal document that confirms someones legal sex is a birth certificate. All other common forms of ID, including passport and driving licence, can now be updated on request to show someone’s self-declared gender identity so can no longer be used for the purposes of confirming legal sex class."

yup jj, see where the government issuing 'I am a woman' certificates has got us.

daft idea wasn't it?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

yup jj, see where the government issuing 'I am a woman' certificates has got us.

daft idea wasn't it?

A trans woman with an I am a woman certificate will be exempt from this is FPFW lament in their guidance because she would have a birth certificate that matches her aquired sex.

Again, there's definitely an agenda to reframe the legitimate exclusion of males who are presenting as women as a negative for women who are not especially feminine in appearance. There's no link at all. It's just a desperate attempt to deflect as ever.

This.

Butch women are no threat to other women. People who are male are the threat, hence the single sex exemptions which allows the exclusion of anyone of the male sex no matter their gender Identity.

aquired sex

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Again, there's definitely an agenda to reframe the legitimate exclusion of males who are presenting as women as a negative for women who are not especially feminine in appearance. There's no link at all. It's just a desperate attempt to deflect as ever.

This.

Of course there's a link. You can't just handwave away the impact of this on gender nonconforming and gender ambiguous people. Any attempt to police spaces on the basis of phyisical sex will impact on those who don't typically resemble their physical sex. Loads of gender non-conforming people have told you this will be a problem for them. Why don't you listen?

gender ambiguous people

EVERYONE IS GENDER AMBIGUOUS FOR FUCKS SAKE

you know what? you're super special, and so is everyone else

Pure 100% gaslighting bullshit. We have to let men in or GNC women will be hassled. We managed perfectly well before. This is not a problem despite your desperate attempts to make it one.

As I pointed out upthread, being asked whether you are in the right lavatory really isn't a problem for a butch-looking woman. Women can tell straight away which sex you are, and the problem goes away. Been there, got the t-shirt.

Loads of gender non-conforming people have told you this will be a problem for them.

What makes you think that feminists are 'gender conforming'? Have you not yet realised that we are gender non-conforming people? Or are you using the term 'gender non-conforming people' to mean something other than people who are gender non-conforming?

@OldCrone

Loads of gender non-conforming people have told you this will be a problem for them.

What makes you think that feminists are 'gender conforming'? Have you not yet realised that we are gender non-conforming people? Or are you using the term 'gender non-conforming people' to mean something other than people who are gender non-conforming?

Well in this context I mean gender ambiguous, or perhaps more correctly sex ambiguous, which a surprising number of people are.

And most GC people are pretty gender conforming as far as I can tell.