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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CALL FOR ACTION Women&Equalities committee calling for evidence on GRA reform - again?!?

234 replies

Cwenthryth · 28/10/2020 07:25

committees.parliament.uk/call-for-evidence/291/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act?fbclid=IwAR2OBw5dDqd0oWBzQrZOjcxb7N0S34f_rEWw7QVnOuzeQfI55co_w0CvFsc
Not quite sure why they’re asking all these same questions again, but looks like we all have more homework to do!

OP posts:
Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 14:36

Yes, a fortune spent. The team are of course very pro self identification into prisons.

inherentlyhuman.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/new-policy-on-transgender-prisoners-progressive-but-can-prisons-keep-pace/?fbclid=IwAR3tnoWG36qNvbIS7o0X0L6SAtvgWXgsdW0KG_sirPQGcdhhVdmBUmsscSE

CharlieParley · 28/10/2020 14:36

@kistanbul

As someone who has experience working on these inquiries/consultations, I can offer some advice. Unless you have professional standing, it really is best to write from your own perspective and not try to write a legal/medical paper. Without demonstrable expertise in those areas, your thoughts are unlikely to be given much weight. You’re much better off writing about your feelings - that’s very useful to committees who want to understand how policy and law affects people on the ground.
Thank you for that, that is useful to know.

If I write a submission for a group of survivors for instance, which will of necessity include writing about feelings, I would still normally back up my points by referring to, for instance, the existing research into trauma-based care. Would you recommend not doing that?

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 14:45

@ArabellaScott

And if you doubt that what I say above is true, then I challenge you to state, openly under your real name on social media, that a woman is an adult human female. Let me know how you get on.
I have done Arabella, a whole interview and follow up published in the county papers with a photo of me and references to my job. A couple of people called me a bigot in the comments (meh) and tons of people agreed with me. I've been to lot's of meetings. Yes they have been protested horribly but lots of people here who have attended would question your insistance that we can't meet.

There's a big difference between can't and it's been a struggle. I think you do a disservice to the work done by saying we can't when we have.

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2020 14:48

Yes, sorry, Escape, that was maybe overstating it somewhat.

I personally don't feel able to do these things: other women can and do, and I salute them, and all the work that's been done.

Just feeling a bit scunnered with it all, today.

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 14:51

Sorry that should say "not permitted". We don't need permission. Framing obstacles as "not permitted" is to hand power over to the alleged granters of permission.

When did feminism become so passive aggressive?

I'm finding this bloody defeatism here so miserable and alienating.

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 14:54

Sorry cross posted. Sorry you are scunnered, me too for a different reason.

Smile
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 28/10/2020 14:55

The fact that you don’t feel able to speak up is part of the impact on you. You feel marginalised and threatened. You are concerned about the impact yet feel at risk if you speak up. That is your personal experience of the impact of the misleading guidance. Maybe this is what they need to hear.

stumbledin · 28/10/2020 14:59

This is the next step after the Minister's proposals (ie what Liz Truss said in Parliament).

The relevant committee then has to look at how this will work in practice and is asking for comments in relation to the proposals. (I dont think these can be changed but I suppose the committe could just say they aren't workable, or contravene equality!)

But it looks like then can pick and choose which submissions to listen to so not sure that loads of individual response will be taken into account unless (as in the instance of the female prisoner assualted by a TW).

But maybe someone who knows about committee procedure could advise.

Imnobody4 · 28/10/2020 15:10

Do we know anything about the committee members? Are there any neutral or GC members. Just wondering if there could be any chance of a minority report.

Procrastinator3 · 28/10/2020 15:19

So Caroline Noakes who has a bad record on equal marriage, www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24809/caroline_nokes/romsey_and_southampton_north/divisions?policy=826
is said in the Mirror to have signed up to an election pledge produced by a Christian group which says sex outside marriage is wrong, had not read the Good Friday Agreement is trying to woke wash her record on this committee.

RozWatching · 28/10/2020 15:24

@OhHolyJesus

As the 'trans' kids point noted above please also note

We can’t publish submissions that mention ongoing legal cases – contact us if you are not sure what this means for you.

Keira and Mrs A due in a few weeks, in time for the deadline? And Single sex prisons is up today.

Be careful how you respond but I suppose it doesn't matter if the response isn't punished it would still be counted? This is so opaque.

The timing is very odd. Why now?
CharlieParley · 28/10/2020 15:25

[quote Thingybob]There's an article by Caroline Noakes in The Times

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-is-time-to-end-the-delays-over-trans-equality-cx2zsh0tw[/quote]
Does anyone have a share token for that article?

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2020 15:27

When did feminism become so passive aggressive?

Well, call me passive aggressive, if you wish, I may be guilty of it, but I think applying that to feminism is also a bit of an overstatement.

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 16:01

It is indeed Arabella. I take it back.

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2020 16:05

Can we have a cup of hot chocolate with something strong added and get on with writing the evidence, then? Smile

stumbledin · 28/10/2020 16:09

I stand corrected as to the value of submissions by individuals.

They recommend looking at advice for Lord Lucs(?)

Ralph Lucas
@LordLucasCD
Yes, this is important. Commons committees’ reports carry weight because they are (usually) well thought through and evidenced. They are also the product of debate and compromise - not an obvious feature of Twitter - which adds to the respect they receive. Some advice ...
Dr. Jane Clare Jones @janeclarejones
Okay, time to get our submission writing hats out again.
IMPORTANT. committees.parliament.uk/call-for-evidence/291/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act

... from someone who has sat on a good few of these in the Lords. Submissions from individuals are valued, especially if they are focussed (you can leave it to Women’s Place et al to make the blockbuster submissions), well argued, bring in new lines of thought and evidence, ...
... and are respectful of counter-arguments. Your aim should be to have the committee, including some who are not wholly on your side, say ‘that’s a point I would like to see in the final report’. Two pages is enough: you get a huge amount of reading, and members will do ...
... their best to get through it all, but clarity and good structure will get you read carefully. The old Dick Francis technique: use the first two lines to make them want to read the first page, and the first page to make them want to read it all. ...
... Where you can point up and support a compromise solution, do. This is the territory that a committee will occupy if it can, so help them choose the compromises that work best for you.

twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1321380352976408578

ArabellaScott · 28/10/2020 16:16

Compromises: Third spaces? Any thoughts, anyone?

CharlieParley · 28/10/2020 16:18

@Escapeplanning

It's five years since the last inquiry. The good thing is dipshit ideas like abolishing of legal gender completely would have been slated for this inquiry this time around. futureoflegalgender.kcl.ac.uk/2020/04/30/responding-to-gender-critical-feminism-on-gender-sex-and-a-generous-feminist-politics-in-anxious-times/ As a result of the massive public pushback they're now reduced to impotent meeping about feminism's refusal to ignore the impact of sex, in largely unread blogs.
Good grief, I just read that. That's an author going to great lengths to pretend that reality doesn't really exist.

It's also not only terribly wordy but also manages to entirely miss the point of the debate. Which is not philosophical discourse about the nature of sex and gender, but the material consequences of removing sex as a legal concept, the beneficial nature of the latter being4þ, , of course, the working assumption of Davina Cooper's entire project.

I've started resenting this kind of pseudo-intellectual writing, that strives for the impression of insight, complex thought, and rigourous inquiry through the use of overly complicated sentence construction, obscure scholarly expressions and a consistent refusal to engage with the actual arguments.

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 16:22

Sounds delicious, and fortifying.

Escapeplanning · 28/10/2020 16:29

I posted this on another thread which is my summary of third spaces and the interaction between single sex exemptions and employment protection.

Ereshkigalangcleg said this.

In the Equality Act, I mean. "Sex" we would think is clear cut but legal opinions suggest it includes members of the opposite sex who hold a Gender Recognition Certificate.

But "gender reassignment" as a PC is extremely vague, and even though it was not originally intended to include non binary gender identities who aren't taking steps to permanently "reassign" their gender, a recent employment judgement has interpreted that these people are included and protected by it, even though the government acknowledged in 2015/16 that they were not.

I said this.
I think this is relevant in that it's used as permitting occasional use of opposite sex facilities according to daily identification choices.

The issue here is not employment law but is about clarification of the interpretation of single sex exemptions in facilities (which will apply to work places) At the moment the land grab of undermining exemptions is used to justify identity led workplace policy with the associated claim that objection is equivalent to harrasment.

The solution to this is Ann Sinnots case. If we can get correct guidance then exemptions can be applied at work as appropriate and the burden of intimidation of women by harrasment claims is nullified. Additional Non gendered space can be provided where no-one is experiencing inappropriate behaviour.

If that makes sense. I'm writing this between meetings so it might not.

TheShoesa · 28/10/2020 16:30

Arabella I was thinking third spaces too as a possible compromise as per Lord Lucas's point above.

I vow to be a lot more direct in what I write this time (politely and respectfully, of course). It is a ridiculous situation we are in when the word woman is supposedly difficult to define.

Sex matters. Single sex spaces matter. The difference between sex and gender needs clarification. And at what point does identity trump reality in transition / trans identity/ gender reassignment? Non binary and gender fluid people are still either male or female, however they wish to be referred to. Suicide attempts (whether using the Stonewall figures or not) indicate a mental health issue that needs addressing.

It is so fucking TIRESOME to have to go over this yet again.

ChattyLion · 28/10/2020 17:25

I haven’t read what they’ve asked for yet but I will stay hopeful for now. I think it’s excellent news if MPs don’t kick this question of reviewing the GRA into the long grass. GRA is outdated, redundant in its own terms (now we have same sex marriage and equal pension age) and is now purely a personal emotional validation mechanism which is absolutely not the role of the state to provide.

Everyone is already free to wear and call themselves whatever they want. As a society we already support everyone’s rights via the Equality Act. The GRA fails on its own requirements as a public marker of a new status of ‘living as the opposite sex’- where people act in ways entirely inconsistent with their GRC which naively requires them to live in the acquired gender ‘until death’.. then there are no mechanism to revoke GRC.
It’s an inevitable problem, of course people will change their minds or act post-GRC in ways Parliament never envisaged. So people with the GRC, who are going through normal life course stages like parenthood which GRA does not really fit with, are perhaps understandably launching court battles to try to make the rest of the legislative world match up with their GRA, regardless of reality or other problems that could cause for others.

GRA also, in a Kafkaesque way, doesn’t allow detransitioned people to legally reverse their GRC and revert back to the truth of their unchanged biologically sexed body. (unless they admit to ‘fraud’ or something which is ludicrous). Even if they are quite open about not being whatever legal sex is written on their GRC.

The common factor problem here is not people- we are all entitled to live the lives we want and to change our minds about things over our lifetimes, the common factor problem is the GRA.

I will be happy if GRA is finally of concern to MPs because it is problematic legislation already impacting very negatively on several groups such as women, mothers, and young people. GRA’s particular legal fiction effectively allows self-ID already because you can’t know whether anyone has it. The arguments against self ID also apply against the GRA in its current form.

And as gender dysphoria and other struggles of adolescence have been turbocharged by a identity politics in recent years, GRC may be something that increasingly more and also younger people may be thinking about acquiring. As GRA was written with the situation of late, male transitioners in mind (you can tell because it doesn’t even mention childbirth while in possession of a GRC as an option etc) and in anticipation of very few individuals actually ever taking it up.

So if GRA is left as it is, Parliament and the courts can expect to hear of plenty of cases from unhappy people with GRC who find GRC possession does not fit in with their legal interactions in other settings over their lifetime, or who just want to release themselves from having a GRC but bizarrely legally can’t do so. Which latter situation is surely a huge breach of their human rights.

So GRA needs democratic parliamentary review, but it most definitely needs scrapping in its current form. The Science and Technology or the Health and Social Care Commons select committees also need to look at the evidence for invasive ‘transition’ of children and young people and vulnerable adults. Parliament should bring in statutory regulation of this, because the decisions of individual doctors working usher pressure from a powerful lobby in professional silos at GIDS, mean that the inappropriately politicised affirmation model of ‘healthcare’ will continue to damage more and more patients. I also hope MPs will also take this chance to insist that mental health services for all young people are boosted.

jellyfrizz · 28/10/2020 17:35

Compromises: Third spaces? Any thoughts, anyone?

Make a clear distinction between sex and gender - I think everyone agrees these are not the same thing. A definition of gender and gender identity would be helpful.

Once sex and gender are clearly defined let anyone who wants one print off a certificate from the internet for free saying gender identity: non-binary (or whatever that person’s gender identity is).

Where it is necessary to know people’s sex add another line allowing people to also state their gender identity.

Gender identity respected but not confused/conflated with sex would be my compromise.

Floisme · 28/10/2020 17:59

The GRA was a compromise and look where that's got us.

gardenbird48 · 28/10/2020 18:11

Does anyone have a share token for that article?

Hi Charlie does that work for you?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-is-time-to-end-the-delays-over-trans-equality-cx2zsh0tw

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