"Betsy DeVos Attacks Trans Athletes Again": New Statesman

[Malahaha]

My opinion of this woman has made a U-turn. As is so often the case. I used to think she was ridiculous. Now, she's a voice for truth.

Quote from the article:
So much for “live free or die.” In a jarring attack on trans student-athletes, the Department of Education’s Betsy DeVos has forced Franklin Pierce University in New Hampshire to rescind its trans-inclusive policies for its athletic programs. DeVos claims that Franklin Pierce’s guidelines violate Title IX, which is meant to protect women in spaces that receive public funding. In the eyes of the Trump administration, trans women are not regarded as women at all.

www.thenation.com/article/society/trans-devos-title-ix/

Sorry, The Nation, not New Statesman. Brain fog there.

A voice for truth!? The woman who is systematically defunding education across America? Allies like this do you no favours at all.

If she is a voice for truth, I guarantee you it is not motivated by any feminist, women-centered ideology. Betsy deVos is a horrible woman.

Unfortunately the only people in the US consistently speaking up for women in this arena are rightwing evangelicals who loath all the letters of the LGBTQ. Frankly it isn't doing the cause any good.

Thread on it here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4052806-University-Forced-to-Rescind-Transgender-Sports-Policy

Even a busted clock etc, but she is a loathesome woman.

Ohalrightthen

Do you agree with what De Vos had to say though?

Hard nope. We can do better.

@andyoldlabour

Ohalrightthen

Do you agree with what De Vos had to say though?

I don't think that's really all that relevant tbh. I haven't done a huge amount of research into the issue of trans women in women's sports, so i don't really have a fixed opinion on that, but i have done a lot of reading around DeVos and her track record on education (and many other things) and truly believe her to be a vile woman, absolutely morally bankrupt and despicable, and as a member of the queer community i would not ever trust anyone who declared her to be a voice of truth.

DeVos opposes the trans ideology for a different reason than women here. She is not a feminist. Anti-feminists want the term 'woman' to remain sex-based because they wish to prove that the female sex is inherently different and lesser in various ways, and that it is best suited for various support tasks at home and in low-paid occupations.

Gender critical feminists disagree with her on all other aspects of her belief. She altered the US campus rape policies to be kinder for the men who are accused of rape and harsher for the women who are raped, for instance.

As someone said, both the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) and Ku Klux Clan need a name for blacks as a race, but the reasons for that need are opposite.

" I don't think that's really all that relevant tbh. I haven't done a huge amount of research into the issue of trans women in women's sports, so i don't really have a fixed opinion on that, "

Why do you need research when everyone knows that someone with a male body has an overwhelming advantage over someone with a female body when it comes to almost all sport? Pretending that transwomen are somehow different because they may have lowered their testosterone to 5times higher than the average women when it has as been proven to make little or no difference to their athletic ability is absolute nonsense.

@nepeta

DeVos opposes the trans ideology for a different reason than women here. She is not a feminist. Anti-feminists want the term 'woman' to remain sex-based because they wish to prove that the female sex is inherently different and lesser in various ways, and that it is best suited for various support tasks at home and in low-paid occupations.

Gender critical feminists disagree with her on all other aspects of her belief. She altered the US campus rape policies to be kinder for the men who are accused of rape and harsher for the women who are raped, for instance.

As someone said, both the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) and Ku Klux Clan need a name for blacks as a race, but the reasons for that need are opposite.

Completely agree.

@334bu

" I don't think that's really all that relevant tbh. I haven't done a huge amount of research into the issue of trans women in women's sports, so i don't really have a fixed opinion on that, "

Why do you need research when everyone knows that someone with a male body has an overwhelming advantage over someone with a female body when it comes to almost all sport? Pretending that transwomen are somehow different because they may have lowered their testosterone to 5times higher than the average women when it has as been proven to make little or no difference to their athletic ability is absolute nonsense.

Yeah, sure, makes sense, not saying it doesnt, just saying i haven't given it concerted thought or read her statements.

Regardless, she is not someone I'd want on my side for any cause or position, and referring to her as a voice of truth is a risky thing to do if you don't want to be seen as an ignorant, regressive, oppressive bigot.

I actually agree that the way Title 9 has been used in the US Before the changes was bad and did NOT help victims. It was basically a CYA clause for universities. As long as they had a “process” on the books it didn’t matter how many rapes happened on their campuses. In many cases during the process victims were encouraged not to make a police report And brush things under rugs. under title 9 “protections” women who are assaulted have to keep going to class with their rapists. Not to say that the criminal justice system is helpful a lot of the time, but at least in those cases an arrest and immediate removal is at least possible (and with an arrest a rapist can be expelled or suspended).

With A title 9 office you have to Wait for a tribunal Process (which can take years) before your Rapist is removed from campus.

In sum. I do not think that title 9 has helped victims of sexual assault much if at all. It has protected universities and perpetrators. I’d be happy to see data that shows I’m wrong.

I disagree with Devos on her plans to gut public education but I agree with her mostly on title ix use in SA allegations. And I certainly agree with her on using it to protect sex based right to sport.

Lots of ad hominem fallacy here today.

I'm sure I could find something to agree on with every person in the world. "You like bread? So do I!" But Betsy DaVos is not only an enemy to rape victims, public education and reproductive health, she also comes from the kind of wealth that is near fraudulent- her family money was built from a multi-level marketing scheme (pyramid scheme). Her own brother, the founder of Blackwater, infiltrates labor unions and the Democratic Party. They are not good people. Even some Republicans are wary of the DeVos family.

What thought would anyone need to give to this ridiculous pretence that because transwomen identify with women all their physical advantages suddenly magically disappear?

@334bu

What thought would anyone need to give to this ridiculous pretence that because transwomen identify with women all their physical advantages suddenly magically disappear?

You've managed to completely miss my original point, which is about her usefulness as an ally. I don't like forming opinions without research and thought, even if they seem obvious to others, and I don't currently have the time or energy to look into this particular issue! I do however have the time and energy to say that this woman, and her abhorrent record and opinions, should not be regarded as a voice of truth. Positioning her as such will do no cause any favours with anyone who isn't a far-right wingnut.

Kim Jong IL had a much beloved dog to whom he fed copious amounts of food while his people starved. Doesn't mean that you are a ruthless murdering dictator if you have a pet dog and just because Betsy de Vos may have deplorable political views doesn't mean she isn't right if she says that anyone born male has no place in female sports.

I accept that if given the choice I would not wish for an ally like Betsy de Vos. However, you seem to be implying in your post that you believe that there is research out there which might validate transwomen's inclusion in female sport, if only you had the time to look for it. Do you believe that the overwhelming differences in physique between males and females can somehow be changed for transwomen?

@334bu

I accept that if given the choice I would not wish for an ally like Betsy de Vos. However, you seem to be implying in your post that you believe that there is research out there which might validate transwomen's inclusion in female sport, if only you had the time to look for it. Do you believe that the overwhelming differences in physique between males and females can somehow be changed for transwomen?

I don't know how many more ways i can tell you that i haven't given it any thought yet, so I'm going to stop trying.

So you do believe that transwomen could potentially change their physique so massively that they could compete fairly against women,

@334bu

So you do believe that transwomen could potentially change their physique so massively that they could compete fairly against women,

Fucking hell, i don't know! I don't know about the intricacies of hormone treatments, i don't know about the variations in levels of naturally occurring testosterone in biological females and how they would compare to trans women on female hormones, i haven't looked into the science at all, and so i don't know!

I'll give you a hand. There is no way any transwoman can change their physique sufficiently to mitigate the huge physical advantages male puberty gives them over women.

www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines

[quote 334bu]I'll give you a hand. There is no way any transwoman can change their physique sufficiently to mitigate the huge physical advantages male puberty gives them over women.

www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines[/quote]
Great! Fantastic! I will read the link at some point I'm sure, and draw my own conclusion. I highly doubt it'll have any impact on how i feel about Betsy Devos though, which was what i was fucking posting about in the first place

I have to say, if this was your attempt to educate and convince someone of your point of view, it needs a lot of work. When someone says to you that they haven't formulated an opinion on something yet, being unceasingly hostile and aggressive and repeatedly challenging them to give you an answer even when they've given you reasons why they haven't done so yet... it doesn't win you any favours.

I fucking hate tone policing and would spit in the eye of anyone telling women they should just be nicer to people and then they'd stop being oppressed, but jesus christ you are hard work. To be perfectly honest this entire interaction has made me want to disregard your point of view entirely, without any consideration, just on principle.

I was not trying to educate you. I was just expressing my incredulity that anyone could imply that there might be no differences in athletic ability between someone who has gone through male puberty and someone who has gone through a female one and that the huge physical differences in physique might be mitigated in any significant way by marginally lowering their testosterone levels.