No to self-ID, so when does a man 'become' a transwoman / woman?

[Shedbuilder]

And what rights can they claim before they have a GRC?

Liz Truss has clearly said that that self-ID is not being introduced. So at what point can a man/ woman legally assert that they have changed sex? (Yes, I know people can't change sex but unfortunately the GRA has created the legal fiction that they can)

Are there any lawyers or clever people out there who can advise?

Hopefully Ann Sinnott will be granted JR to look at this.

Thank you, TheShoesa, that is really, really helpful.

My laptop is playing up and won't let me attach a picture, but if you scroll down the factsheets page a bit there's one about single sex spaces which references the specific parts of the EA which apply in the different circumstances

fairplayforwomen.com/factsheets/

Thank you, we had been reading the FairPlay for Women pages about the EA 2010 but seem to have managed to miss that. If you're not used to reading legal documents it can all get a bit overwhelming.

@Shedbuilder

Thank you, we had been reading the FairPlay for Women pages about the EA 2010 but seem to have managed to miss that. If you're not used to reading legal documents it can all get a bit overwhelming.

Yes, and many people seem to rely on the fact that women simply won't bother.

Which is why the Ann Sinnott case is very important. Getting the EHRC to interpret the law clearly, is vital. And not something they appear to be very enthusiastic about, to be honest.

I totally agree!

I hope your friend finds the information she needs to be able to confidently fight her corner. You do have to wonder about the sort of person (of either sex and whatever gender) who wants to force themselves into somewhere that they are neither welcomed nor have the right to be

Not that a makes a difference as it applies to both but are they wanting support or a job? I have seen quite a few job adverts where they say this position is for females only under the EQ2010 section blah blah part blah blah. Also I watched a video from a government meeting with a panel and three people from different refuges talking about this and the government minister specifically said that you can refuse them

Para 27 schedule 3 to the Eq Act

Single-sex services

27(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if—

(a)any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and

(b)the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The condition is that only persons of that sex have need of the service.

(3)The condition is that—

(a)the service is also provided jointly for persons of both sexes, and

(b)the service would be insufficiently effective were it only to be provided jointly.

(4)The condition is that—

(a)a joint service for persons of both sexes would be less effective, and

(b)the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services.

(5)The condition is that the service is provided at a place which is, or is part of—

(a)a hospital, or

(b)another establishment for persons requiring special care, supervision or attention.

(6)The condition is that—

(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

(7)The condition is that—

(a)there is likely to be physical contact between a person (A) to whom the service is provided and another person (B), and

(b)B might reasonably object if A were not of the same sex as B.

(8)This paragraph applies to a person exercising a public function in relation to the provision of a service as it applies to the person providing the service.

www.feministcurrent.com/

This is a great resource website set up by legal eagle feminists to help. They had some good articles which give further examples of how the comparators are used (as mentioned by pps above) as described above.

If it is not too outing, what type of female based services is the person looking to avail themselves of?

It's a complete mess isn't it, and one that Stonewall and individual activists are determined to use to their advantage.

EHRC are up to their sexist necks in this, producing incorrect guidance, not correcting it when this was pointed out to them and now defending their stance against Ann Sinnott. Deliberate misinformation aimed at undermining women's legal rights. From the EHRC.

Ann's case (like so many others that ordinary women have had to bring via bring-and-buy crowdfunders) couldn't be more important.

Hope your friend's organisation is able to continue to prioritise women of the adult human female kind OP.

lived "as the opposite sex"

I just can't get past this. IT DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING, ffs.

What you wear, what you call yourself.

Sorry, I know this is not an answer, OP, I just sometimes despair.

Unless a man has periods, gives birth, experiences menopause etc, he will never ever 'live as the opposite sex'.

It's the agression that seems to have worked for TRA's. Push and push until women cave in, then they can say 'but we already do access women's spaces'. Bullying and control are part of the narrative and a recognition that we will have to take court action. This is not a democracy at work.

The other issue is that even once you've gotten to the bottom of the OPs question how do you prove/disprove someone's sex? You can't ask for a copy of their birth certificate or ask them to prove they are male/female which almost makes safeguards pointless.

Women in 2020 have to meet in secret. Ffs.

DS shares a flat with a uni friend who identifies as a transwoman.

She:

• has not changed her name officially anywhere, so her bank, the university and her employer (and her parents!) still use her former (male) name
• does not take hormones
• has not undergone any surgery
• has not approached any GP/ medical practitioner about transitioning
• does not wear women's clothes/ make up or have a 'female' hairstyle

When I asked DS how and why he thought she identified as a woman he couldn't explain, but just said something about it being 'how she feels in herself'.

So how can anyone tell?

Quite often, including some MTF trans people who have posted on here, it seems to mean "I don't feel like what I think a man should stereotypically feel like and therefore personally I'm not comfortable identifying as a man so I'm going to be a woman instead".

@PopperUppleton

So how can anyone tell?

Well, exactly. They can't really, except that she now asks her friends to call her 'Tina' not 'Tom'. But when her parents came to visit, DS was meant to call her Tom again in front of them .

I told him I thought that was unfair to expect him to become part of the "charade" (for want of a better word)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Quite often, including some MTF trans people who have posted on here, it seems to mean "I don't feel like what I think a man should stereotypically feel like and therefore personally I'm not comfortable identifying as a man so I'm going to be a woman instead".

This is really interesting.

In "Tina"'s case she has two very strong masculine stereotypes in her (Northern working class) family - her dad and her brother. Perhaps in a different family set up she would have been comfortable being gay?

jdoejnr1 In the vast majority of cases it is easy to discern a person's sex from the way they look/sound/walk/behave in real life - photos can be a bit more difficult, I'll give you that

In "Tina"'s case she has two very strong masculine stereotypes in her (Northern working class) family - her dad and her brother. Perhaps in a different family set up she would have been comfortable being gay?

There does seem to be an unpleasantly homophobic undercurrent to lots of transitioner's stories.

In the vast majority of cases it is easy to discern a person's sex from the way they look/sound/walk/behave in real life - photos can be a bit more difficult, I'll give you that

Yes, I agree.

Here is the EHRC clarification stating that there is a difference between two people sharing the protected characteristic of gender reassignment depend ing on whether they have legally changed sex, i.e. got a GRC.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

The statement also makes clear that in using the sex-based exemptions, possession of a GRC does not mean they cannot be excluded from an opposite sex facility or service:

There are some exceptions permitting different treatment on the basis of gender reassignment, for example the exceptions related to single-sex services and associations. These exceptions do not hinge on whether or not an individual has a GRC.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Quite often, including some MTF trans people who have posted on here, it seems to mean "I don't feel like what I think a man should stereotypically feel like and therefore personally I'm not comfortable identifying as a man so I'm going to be a woman instead".

That is precisely what one woman told me about a male relative. Went on cross-sex hormones saying "I think like a woman". Then stopped the treatment a year later having realised that he was a man not a woman. Explaining himself by saying that he was different from the men he knew, therefore decided if he wasn't thinking like a typical man, he must be thinking like a woman instead. Ergo be a woman.