FFS, apparently I have to explain the patriarchy

[artisanparsnips]

A toolkit was recently launched for consultations with young people as part of planning. I read it and called them out on the fact that it said nothing at all about sex, and that this was something which should not be ignored in any discussion of the public realm.

I did get a couple of sensible replies, but a junior academic involved sent me back an email which included this gem:

In the toolkit there is a specific focus on working with youth workers and balancing the voices of the young people internally, so I guess it will be up to the team applying the toolkit to make sure that there is an equal representation in the group of young people they convene.

"May I ask, which methods do you feel would disenfranchise girls? I am really interested to understand why you think boys would be potentially overpowering in this process and particularly the way of engagement that you think might not be working well as proposed."

I probably need to say a bit more than just "the patriarchy, stupid" but I might just leave it at that.

I think it's just best to wear a SMASH THE PATRIARCHY t-shirt and let people work it out for themselves. If that fails, wear the t-shirt while handing out leaflets and shouting through a megaphone.

Having a supportive cat at home waiting for you with wine also helps.

This junior academic is referring to the methods though, rather than the oversight of not recognising sex. What does he/she mean by methods? Is this person just being obtuse?

There are many 'methods' to apply the patriarchy but if you don't know what the patriarchy is it's going to be a long email and a long night.

I hope there is a wine-pawing cat nearby and she's reaching for the bottle openers

(Pawing/Pouring...geddit?!)

Cat - check
Wine - check

If anyone can tell me how to train the cat to open wine, though, please do. It's going to be easier than doing this.

What does he/she mean by methods?

It's hard to tell without knowing what the consultaions are about and what your suggestion was but I think they are asking for specific feedback on the consultation methods proposed and why these might not pick up women's voices equally (e.g. if it's a group discussion are you thinking girls might be spoken over?).

If it's not private, perhaps you could just post your calling out and their reply?

I don't think them asking for specifics is a bad thing myself.

@artisanparsnips

A toolkit was recently launched for consultations with young people as part of planning. I read it and called them out on the fact that it said nothing at all about sex, and that this was something which should not be ignored in any discussion of the public realm.

I did get a couple of sensible replies, but a junior academic involved sent me back an email which included this gem:

In the toolkit there is a specific focus on working with youth workers and balancing the voices of the young people internally, so I guess it will be up to the team applying the toolkit to make sure that there is an equal representation in the group of young people they convene.

"May I ask, which methods do you feel would disenfranchise girls? I am really interested to understand why you think boys would be potentially overpowering in this process and particularly the way of engagement that you think might not be working well as proposed."

I probably need to say a bit more than just "the patriarchy, stupid" but I might just leave it at that.

Well maybe I'm stupid too but your post is laden with jargon. It reads like an job advert in The Guardian. It's not clear to me what you are trying to achieve although presumably it is clearer if one is actively involved.

Again maybe I'm stupid too but the question you are taking exception to is clearer than most of your post.

You can of course reply "it's the patriarchy stupid". It won't be in the least bit helpful to the questioner or advancing what you are trying to do but I'm sure you'll feel better.

Well, they’re clearly prattish if they don’t get the point from what you’ve already said.. but as an academic perhaps they would get something out of reading Man Made Language by Dale Spender or In a Different Voice by Carol Gilligan, to start considerIng what some of the issues they should be taking into account might be.

Or google academic papers on Feminist Strategies for Interviewing and Analysis..
There’s absolutely loads of work out there on this area, this colleague just needs to want to consider the problems.

Look for some research that supports your claim that women’s voices might be silenced in this process. Not everyone is a feminist (I am) - you need to be able to justify your point in a better way than telling someone they are stupid.

@fluro

Look for some research that supports your claim that women’s voices might be silenced in this process. Not everyone is a feminist (I am) - you need to be able to justify your point in a better way than telling someone they are stupid.

This, totally.

Sounds like the OP has already basically pointed out the issue, you can see that from the young man’s use of words like ‘overpowering’ reflected back from her critique.

I’d say it could point to a lack of common sense, or normal powers of observation, normal levels of imagination and empathy, or to entitlement, or the want to further the patriarchy, or perhaps to stupidity, if a person can’t understand (or challenges) women pointing out the potential for sexism.

Sorry if I came across as being a bit brattish, I was really just letting off steam. And I don't want to identify the actual project because - in fact - everyone else involved has been really good, acknowledge that they have a gender deficit and are talking to me about how they can improve this.

I'd actually sent him a whole document which explained how, in this particular area of planning, the needs of teenage girls are rarely ever considered. It's a toolkit about holding consultations with teenagers about public space.

HIs question was, after all of this, why girls might not get heard in this process. And I was floored.

I did give him some specifics, but I also pointed out that as a middle-aged, confident, Oxbridge educated woman, I still get talked over and patronised and have my points ignored, so I didn't hold out much hope for teenage girls from deprived estates. I actually suggested he read the Caroline Criado Perez book.

I think you're right though, @ChattyLion, a mix of stupidity and entitlement. It's how they can produce a whole document about consultation and not ever even think that sex might be an issue.

@fluro

Look for some research that supports your claim that women’s voices might be silenced in this process. Not everyone is a feminist (I am) - you need to be able to justify your point in a better way than telling someone they are stupid.

I had sent him a whole document, and I still got that question.

Did the tool kit mention disability? How they will include those with learning disability or autism? What considerations will be made for dyslexia, hearing or speech impairment? If they just suggest groups then it is not just girls' voices silenced.

Did they say "I guess"

If so ask them how they are going to ensure that the teams pick an equal balance.
Are they aware of the different ways girls and boys use language?

It's a toolkit about holding consultations with teenagers about public space

Ah. About men's space you mean?

Places that will be dominated by young men either because they are designed with their interests in mind or because they will naturally assume it is theirs and push the girls and young women out or simply make them feel unwelcome except as admiring spectators.

I wonder if the consultation explicitly contained questions along the lines of what would make girls and young women feel welcome in the spaces? What would make them feel safe (or what makes them feel unsafe)? Were there female-only focus groups led by a youth worker who specialises in girls' work?

Or was this another 'deal with boys' and young men's perceived anti-social behaviour by creating leisure facilities for them and fuck the girls' consultation?

In other words, it's obvious that in terms of method they need girls' only groups and the questions need to be framed very clearly about what might prevent girls using public space, what might encourage them to use it and so on (rather than being 'gender-neutral', and, in this case, tacitly 'male').

Is public space ever aimed at girls? YetAnotherSparticus is right - unless girls are specifically considered their needs are ignored.

I can’t be the only one who finds the tone of their reply unpleasant?
It’s something I’ve seen before from people who’ve done a bit of NLP but don’t realise that it’s really transparent. You make a statement and instead of an answer they’ll give you a series of seemingly innocent wide-eyed questions, but it’s a ploy to try and trip you up by forcing you to go into far greater detail than is necessary. The objective is not to give you any answers or admit there might be an issue, but to dig out a ‘gotcha’ that enables them to completely disempower you and dismiss you by nothing more than catching you on the hop. Horrible.

There was a load of studies about this back in the day of youth clubs. The boys used the games tables and dominated the centre of the room, the girls ended up around the edges watching, or in any kitchen area. Girls' specific work was often about make-up or fashion - unless the youth worker had a feminist streak when it was often about why the boys were in the centre of the room...

I agree vermeil.

"May I ask, which methods do you feel would disenfranchise girls? I am really interested to understand why you think boys would be potentially overpowering in this process and particularly the way of engagement that you think might not be working well as proposed."

Is very different to

"Hey, we don't want the boys to overpower! The girls need to have an equal voice. How might we achieve this?" It's the 'as well as proposed' that gets me. This suggests that the OP is the outlier to a well thought out proposal that everyone else agrees with. It was passive-aggressive and likely said by someone who doesn't give a shit about girls.

@YetAnotherSpartacus
Absolutely. It’s the supposed desire to ‘understand’. At first glance it gives the impression of wanting to know, but that’s not what it is at all, it’s just a way to try and make the OP look and feel stupid so they stop being difficult. You can keep explaining till you’re blue in the face, but all you’ll keep getting back is endless supposed credulity. It’s deeply arrogant.

I think artisan might actually work with a poster here. That wide eyed naivety is so very familiar

It's so deeply unfashionable to care about girls in youth spaces right now, sadly. This is more about any recognition of girls' specific needs being seen as potentially anti-trans and therefore 'wrong think', but it also gives a green light to those who openly don't care, or who are effectively MRAs and want to dismantle the rights of girls.

I’d be so tempted to patronise in a reply about how unfortunate it is that they seem to be entirely unaware of an entire body of relevant literature and maybe need to add some additional expertise in these matters to the team if they want to be taken seriously.

So many good posts on here. I like Museum‘s approach

I also think some men get off on making women actually voice and name how they feel discriminated against, especially in a work setting. It’s a kind of fucked-up rank-pulling over us on their part. Its an othering exercise where they get to force and see female vulnerability. It produces a level of intimate disclosure that they like. The healthy ‘fact-finding’ interest isn’t real. Not nice, but that’s been my experience before.

Yes, caring about girls in youth and public spaces is exactly the boulder I am pushing up hill right now. I had a long thread a while back about play equipment for teenage girls, that all got put on hold for a while as nobody was thinking about anything except covid, and now I am back on the case.

We're trying to set up the first UK pilot in which teenage girls are consulted about play space - there are plenty of good examples in Europe but not one here. And the amount of pushback I have received from my local council (football pitch, skate park, pump track, thank you) is extraordinary. The most overt sexism came from older women. 'All girls want to do is watch the boys play football'. And. 'what if we ask them what they want and it's a room with a mirror to do their makeup.' I did say that I thought better of teenage girls than that, and she did apologise for that one.

Our next step is to send them a letter which has been drafted by a lawyer pointing out that this is clearly indirect discrimination and perhaps they would like to think again.

@YetAnotherSpartacus. I am totally at the same point of view as you. If you can chuck me links to any of the youth club research, I'd be really grateful.