Female teacher beaten to maths job by man with 'firm handshake' wins tribunal case

[HecatesCats]

Congratulations Vanaja Greenwood. It's unbelievable that this sort of nonsense still goes on. (Hope I haven't cross posted) www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vanaja-greenwood-female-teacher-beaten-to-maths-job-by-man-with-firm-handshake-h6xlqttn5

It's also a bizarre specification that bundles maths in with teaching rugby. What kind of school does that?

Minor private schools, in the mould of St Custard's. As any fule kno, Sigismund Arbuthnot had many strings to his bow, and the Headmaster also ran a whelk stall on the side.

Completely normal madness.

This happened to me at the start of the year. I was working in a school as the family support worker assistant, i only worked pt within school hours, (I had initially been a volunteer then secured a casual contract part time job!) when the family support officer left I was encouraged to apply despite me telling them that because of my sons sen there may be times where I would need to attend appointments in school hours (very occasionally). There were 3 candidates for the job, me, a lady who did the job in another school and a man who used to be a police officer (no experience working in schools though).

Guess who got the job? And when I asked for feedback was told that although I interviewed well and had good experience and relevant qualifications (PGCE, counselling, safeguarding etc) the job went to someone who “was more flexible in their availability”
His second week in he had a problem with his child care and asked if I could do the 8.15 start and 4.30 finish for the week, I said no I couldn’t because i didn’t have any childcare sorted myself and was told he has concerns about my commitment to the job.

A week later I was made redundant because of COVID my job was no longer sustainable apparently.

It seems they decided that the skills they wanted were more important than being a subject specialist. I find troubling that the tribunal apparently said the particular attributes which the school said they wanted were typically male ones. They might be more common in male candidates, others may think they are not the right attributes to want, but there is nothing wrong in wanting them, whether for the purposes of balance amongst the teaching staff or because the school think those attributes are what their pupils need. As for being a maths specialist, maybe schools aren’t that fussed or maybe it came out in the interview process that other factors were more important for reasons unknown. I am not saying that this is what happened here, as clearly the school were using their justifications as a cover for sexism or made sexist assumptions about the female candidate (the firm hand shake is ridiculous), because that is what the tribunal found. However, where there is no sexism, I can see why a school might want those attributes in a role or decide that they were important when presented with the candidates.

Standard behaviour in private schools sadly. I’ve had experience of both state and independent schools. Male sporty teachers are always prioritised in mixed sex or boys’ schools. They’re usually affable ex-privately educated people. They’re ‘charm’ is used to sell the school to prospective parents - talent in teaching doesn’t matter. Private schools assume that the male of the household will be paying the fees, so look to staff their schools to attract parents. It’s why they think firm handshakes matter.

Minor private schools, in the mould of St Custard's. As any fule kno, Sigismund Arbuthnot had many strings to his bow, and the Headmaster also ran a whelk stall on the side.

LOL at this. You said what I was trying to say, but were much funnier.

Valuing firm handshakes and such like is such crap. It really tells you little about how good people will be at the job. Neither does appearing super confident (some confidence is of course important): sometimes the most confident are the biggest bullshitters.

The thing is the recruiters don't care. Interviews aren't about getting the best person to do the job. They are about getting the best person for the job. Which are rarely the same thing.

Simple statistics, and the ongoing instances of the Peter Principle show clearly that about 50% of people in any role are incompetent.

Sounds like really poor recruitment. I get the impression that they liked "the cut of his jib" and changed the job to suit him instead of filling the actual post. They should have offered him something else and let her just teach maths.

But, having interviewed her, they might not have thought she would be very good at teaching secondary school maths? Again, not saying that is what happened here. Perhaps a school might decide to re-jig the maths specialists teachers so that they teach the upper years, as they thought the person they hired was a fantastic teacher and would be able to teach the lower years, plus having the extra skills they needed. Perhaps the field was weak. Again, not saying this is a good decision, but they should be allowed to make it.

Independent schools don’t have to make conventional decisions (provided they do not discriminate on the grounds of sex). It is up to those seeking an education outside of the state sector to decide whether to pay for it.

She won her tribunal. I'm fairly sure it looked at the facts.

@JamieLeeCurtains

It's also a bizarre specification that bundles maths in with teaching rugby. What kind of school does that?

Minor private schools, in the mould of St Custard's. As any fule kno, Sigismund Arbuthnot had many strings to his bow, and the Headmaster also ran a whelk stall on the side.

Completely normal madness.

Or Evelyn Waugh.

Leading school
Good school
School

No prizes for guessing which category this establishment falls under.

Let's just hope Mr Pennyfeather's starting pistol no longer uses live ammo.

I'm sorry you've had a tough time Apple

Most men are braggadocios. The amount of ablolute shite I've heard over the years and I'm still gobsmacked at the neck of them.

Women need to get better at not giving a fuck and also dare I say, know how to give a firm handshake.

I'm very glad she won her case.

I'm always shocked at the complete unprofessionalism in recruitment and selection in academy (etc) schools. They seem total amateurs. This sounds like 'we don't know what we're looking for but we'll know it when we see it.' And invariably it's a white man.
Independent schools don’t have to make conventional decisions (provided they do not discriminate on the grounds of sex).
They do have to have transparent processes to achieve this. Going by their justification they had none. And I would call this a predictable decision with very little unconventional about it.

Its so depressing that this sort of thing goes on, and worse she had to go to court to prove.

This sounds like 'we don't know what we're looking for but we'll know it when we see it.' And invariably it's a white man.

Its does indeed. Welcome on board old boy, nice firm handshake, pat on the back, jokes about the alma mater, what's your poison etc etc

This story is pretty revealing about how private schools work. People sometimes assume that you get a much better quality of education at private school, but in practice there's a huge variety in the sector.

Very true. I've worked at a school which was certainly the kind of place to prioritise employing someone who was 'our sort' over someone who was well-qualified in their subject and a good classroom teacher.

@NonHypotheticalLurkingParent

Standard behaviour in private schools sadly. I’ve had experience of both state and independent schools. Male sporty teachers are always prioritised in mixed sex or boys’ schools. They’re usually affable ex-privately educated people. They’re ‘charm’ is used to sell the school to prospective parents - talent in teaching doesn’t matter. Private schools assume that the male of the household will be paying the fees, so look to staff their schools to attract parents. It’s why they think firm handshakes matter.

Tbh, this is what I thought - isn't this the exact sort of ethos these types of schools work on - the 'confidence' shown by this man exactly the kind of behaviour/habitus they promote?

Its so depressing that this sort of thing goes on...

Not least because the pupils learning at these institutions are statistically much more likely to attend elite universities and go on to hold positions of influence, a self perpetuating cycle of privilege.

@HecatesCats

Its so depressing that this sort of thing goes on...

Not least because the pupils learning at these institutions are statistically much more likely to attend elite universities and go on to hold positions of influence, a self perpetuating cycle of privilege.

A circle jerk of firm handshakes.

A circle jerk of firm handshakes

I'd rather my child left school knowing how to do maths than play rugby

No fan of rugby or sports, but I'd rather my child was taught sports by someone who knew their onions, as there would be less chance of injury.

As for the comments about private schools, I don't know about England but they certainly apply here in Mexico. Teachers don't need any qualifications at all in private schools and all too many of them are designed to attract the parent instead of thinking about the best interests of the child.

@Ducksurprise

But she couldn't teach rugby and other sport or be housemaster as couldn't work evenings which was also part of the job.

I guess they felt sport is more important, why can’t they hire him just for sports?

Good, glad she won her case.

I wasn't suggesting that they got it right in this case or that they weren't discriminatory, I was just disputing the idea that - in general terms - the qualities set out in the judgment are one's that shouldn't be wanted or that a decision to hire someone who didn't do a degree in the subject against someone that did, is necessarily a bad one.

I'm not sure this is necessarily sexism (Pinewood is a prep school and women make up a majority of teachers in preps I believe) so much as wanting to get the most "bang for their buck" from the staff member, or the man being "the right sort of person" as OPs have said. This is the kind of stuff that matters in the boarding sector. It doesn't sound like of either of them was a very good candidate.