Can any clever mumsnetters educate me on beauty privilege?

[ovlovo]

Hi all. Is this even a thing? The background to this is that I have noticed lately that many of the most high profile young-ish female writers and cultural commentators of the sort of millennial generation (a bit above and a bit below) are also often unusually attractive. I don't want to mention names as I don't want it to be that kind of thread but it does seem to me that there is some sort of beauty privilege going on here. But having said that it feels as though it is probably deeply anti-feminist and a bit woman-hatey to say so. Maybe I am noticing something that isn't there, or basing this on a small sample of people, and/or I have some weird latent idea that clever woman shouldn't also be very attractive or ... I don't know. Or maybe I'm jealous! Can anybody put me right? Is beauty privilege a thing? Thanks in advance!

OP, I totally get where you're coming from and have wrestled with my own feelings about this too. I'm pretty sure I know which particular writer you have in mind - I saw the publicity shots and raised an eyebrow too.

I work in that industry and I know for a fact that looks are very much part of the branding package a publisher wants to sell. So, if you're in your 50s or 60s and have written a brilliant book, that's not to say you won't do well and get lots of exposure, but the opportunities will be more limited than for the 20/30something with the model figure, long blonde hair and conventionally gorgeous face. Magazine editors will be queueing up to commission her for features about anything and everything, from her relationship break up, to her niche food allergy to her favourite pair of shoes. All with a lovely plug for the book thrown in. Quite simply, it's an extra marketing angle that publicists can exploit (and they will.)

It irks me, though obviously the writers themselves are in no way to be blamed or shamed for playing the game. I guess part of what readers/consumers are buying is an illusion and a fantasy, the desire for which extends off the pages of the book and into real life.

Yes, beauty privilege exists. I remember it being called genetic lottery. Glad pp shared the statistics. It's a bit sad really. It kinds of reminds me, though, of this so called "ugly" fish on the david attenborough programme i saw once. I said to my husband, now if someone started a charity for that fish, I would donate. The look on his face just tells me that we have such a long way to go.

I thinks it’s just frustrating because of course you can understand why they want actresses or TV presenters to be attractive as it’s a visual medium (whether you agree with it or not). But for books, in which looks are not required for either the writing or reading of, to have to have a pretty author or to do lots of fashion-y Instagram posts to gain a following and sell well is just depressing. As previous posters said it’s not the women’s fault though.

This exists of course. Beauty privilege.

There are no laws in place to make sure that unattractive women get their fair share of the jobs. It's very unfair.

I also noticed when I was unemployed (well, a single parent on lone parent benefit) people wanted to help (ie, be the one who helped/was instrumental in that person's success) a very attractive times. A few times I remember my head spinning when people in my wider circle raced to help a woman in similar shoes to get a job or make a connection. I wasn't frustrated with the attractive woman to be clear. I was observing a psychological effect, bit like the horn effect I suppose.

People GET something out of helping somebody and it's less of a risk to help somebody who probably doesn't need the help that badly.

Help somebody who needs the break.

I'm pretty sure it's a thing. But it's also not my fault. I have been told I am beautiful since I was about 7, which is creepy anyway. It opens doors, but of course also has many negatives. People objectify me (32Fs dont help), make assumptions, touch, grope etc. I dress very modestly to avoid the wrong impression, and when I was single I never let dates pay, again to avoid difficulties. They still dragged me into an alleyway in Mayfair, stuck their hands in my pants and their tongue down my throat.
Maybe that happens to everyone, but I wonder sometimes whether it also makes a difference to my own attitudes. I have a friend who , without wanting to be mean, is very unattractive. She is unbelievably into the whole TRA thing, thinks there is no problem with trans women in any female space, thinks saying they might commit crimes is ridiculous and self ID should be a right. I was with her for some of the rationale (don't tar trans women with criminals), but I honestly don't think she understands, because men have never done any of that to her. She has not seen just how many seemingly normal, nice people will try to overpower women.

You experience shows how you can be privileged and also disadvantaged for being a woman. It has al2ays been my experience that it was my biology that disadvantaged me. Being groped as well. Objectified. But also passed over for better looking women/ candidates. Pregnancy/ delivery/ breastfeeding/ responsibilities., all things that set a woman at a disadvantage.

Interesting that you have a friend who is "very unattractive".
Almost all of my friends fall in to the attractive to scrub up very attractive category"
Funny. We are all in a similar band. 🤔

Ps, on behalf of ordinary attractive women, some men get far angrier with an ordinary woman who rejects them. Like they feel "how DARE you reject me?" but if a beatiful woman rejects them it doesnt trigger their narcissist rage.

I'm really curious now to know who you are referring to but completely get why you haven't said.
If I've understood right OP, it's not just "does beauty come with privileges" it's "where are are the other authors?" Or "how come you only see the beautiful ones nowadays?" So I might think, where are the women with crooked teeth, wayward streaks of grey hair, unplucked eyebrows and one too big facial feature. So basically, where are the ones who look like me and my equally unglossy (but very lovely and intelligent) mates? It can't be that these authors don't exist so maybe they just don't get the photoshoots and big interviews or opinion pieces with their photo in the byline.

@Muserowl im not quite sure how I've offended you. Anyway sorry. I guess that's why I just have to smile and say how my life is great.

This is absolutely a thing and I've seen it in action. I was very much an ugly ducking and was pretty much ignored and picked on by the opposite sex who were far more interested in my pretty friend I then blossomed quite late (not into a stunner but def quite attractive) and I suddenly got a lot of attention and had a very different experience of the world as I suddenly felt seen and people in general were nicer to me, listened to me and opportunities seemed to open up for me. I am sure it was also partially improved confidence that went with it but it was a marked difference. I feel that my looks have been fading a bit over the last few years and I've def noticed a bit of a difference again. A patriarchal world has a lot more to offer you when you're attractive.

[quote Tootletum]@Muserowl im not quite sure how I've offended you. Anyway sorry. I guess that's why I just have to smile and say how my life is great.[/quote]
Why on earth do you think you offended me. How did you read my post and come to that conclusion.

Glad you're life is great.

I find that I get listened to more now that I'm older tbh.

Also note that a big proponent of the idea that women esp good looking ones have privilege, is the incel community.

ovlovo

I've noticed the same thing. I think that there has been an increased emphasis on publishers etc looking for very attractive young women who can become brands on social media etc.

I somewhere read that increasingly younger people aren't doing much reading, they look at webcasts, listen to podcasts, audiobooks, and such. The writer needs to be able to sell to these visually oriented people.

I always find this topic a bit difficult to discuss.

In a sexist society where women and girls are primarily valued for their looks, good looking women and girls will get more attention. That attention has upsides and downsides. And any advantages it brings are time limited.

There are also benefits to fading into the background a bit tbh. And maybe you get treated more like a person than an object? That has been suggested before on other threads like this.

If beautiful females have any advantages in patriarchal societies around the world then they are only ones that are ceded by men for their own interests.

I mean past the fact that both good looking men and women and boys and girls will be noticed complimented etc.

Racism is a big consideration in this as well- and also porn. Fashion. How the beauty standard changes...

The idea that good looking women and girls are privileged is, in the context of where we are now in society, an odd concept to me. Feels a bit divide and rule?

Not sure I've put that very well.

Of course. I mean look at Nigella. Some women are just beautiful to look at and this always has a biased audience. But statistically most people are average. Likewise people who are academically brilliant often crash and burn as the expectations are too much.

The expectations of being beautiful and brilliant are huge and as anyone knows, don't last.

I dont fully get the point if this thread.

I have some weird latent idea that clever woman shouldn't also be very attractive

I think this is more likely coupled with the converse idea that very pretty women can't be clever.

I think that actually most young women are looks wise at the very, very worst unexceptional and many are a great deal more than that.

There was a very silly opening post in a recent thread about how Holliday Grainger in the Cormoran Strike series was an unrealistic glammed up dolly bird. To me Holliday Grainger looked no more glammed up or unrealistic than the vast majority of young women working in offices or a public facing role.

If you take an average looking young woman of average height and build there's a hell of a lot which can be done by make-up artists, stylists, hairdressers and good lighting. Most people scrub up surprisingly well and being young obviously helps.

Airways thought Naomi Wolf had this.

I struggle with it to readandwalk.

And I don't like discussing individual women but the nigella example is interesting.

I don't know in depth but what I do know is

Both to wealth. Presumably great education.
First husband died. He encouraged her with the food writing etc. Really tragic- he was young and wrote about it as he got iller.
Anyway.
Whose idea was it to be all sexy on the TV? Hers? Maybe. More likely the producers etc.
Married a Saatchi. Super rich. Photoed with his hands round her neck in a restaurant. Christ knows what he did at home.
Divorce- he tried to utterly destroy her reputation.

So all in all, not much fun.

I would also say that while she's pretty a lot of it is grooming... Which is why I hate these threads.

I would argue that her opportunities were more because of her family and connections etc than her looks. She wanted to write about food. She clearly loves cooking and food.

Who suggested that she lick spoons suggestively at the camera? As a highly educated person with a huge passion for the topic I'm guessing not her. Could be wrong obv.

Her massive wealth and looks didn't stop her from being in a relationship where a man thought nothing of grabbing her round the neck in a restaurant though. In public.

Privilege? Sure. Wealth and connections mainly.
Didn't protect her from a violent man though did it.

Women and girls are oppressed all over the world and have been for as long as we know.

People considered attractive (men women boys girls) certainly enjoy a certain positive reaction from people. That's just human nature and not sex specific.

The idea that being a conventionally attractive female confers 'privilege' feels like a. Distraction. An appeal to the socialised tendency to judge other women/ divide them.

Being conventionally attractive in a sexist society is a double edged sword. It really is. Many threads on here discussing this.

The idea that having heterosexual men really wanting to fuck you is a privilege? I mean that's what it boils down to.

Good looking women and girls get an awful lot of shit. And benefits as well. I suppose.

The bottom line is this 'privilege' is conferred by men in a male dominated society because they like looking at you as an object. That is not a privilege.

Yeah I really don't like these threads tbh.

I used to get called the prettiest girl in the room all the time, and I started purposefully looking average after a while-- no make up or hair done. I hated being stared at all the time like I had an audience 24/7. And CONSTANTLY being told to smile.

Women don't want an attractive woman around their significant other so they keep you at arms length and never become your best friend. Men treat you like you're not fully human, like you're another species.

There are also many men who hate you immediately because they just assume you'll reject them. A lot of them think you have too much female privilege and never have to work or do anything you don't want to do.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Where are all the beautiful young women CEOs, high court judges, heads of state?

The corridors of power are not teeming with attractive 20 year old women.

This. Also, beauty is subjective. Good grooming, friendly body language, the right clothes communicate intelligence, ability, and social skills. Looks matter, but the appearance you control - hair clothes shoes - is more significant than genetic advantage of symmetry and big eyes.

I do think it's a shame and sexist if female writers that are more visually appealing are the ones getting published, as writing isn't about looks. (Unless that's what you're writing about).

I sometimes think that female athletes are getting more and more attractive, and wonder if that's me being a jealous older bint, (as most young women are attractive anyway), or if the prettier girls are offered more training opportunities than the plainer girls to start with (see also classical music).

As others have said, being very attractive doesn't mean you will lead a charmed life, and it can be a hindrance too, but in some ways the world may smile down on you a bit more.

Remember Susan Boyle? Who would doubt that, had she been a beautiful, young, sexy woman the initial response to her would have been a quite different thing?

For me, growing up was hard as I thought myself unattractive and I saw before my eyes how all the desirable boys ran after girls who were white and beautiful. I was basically a wallflower and developed a huge inferiority complex about my body and my skin colour. I developed an eating disorder and got really fat.

In the end I got over it all and now, in my older years, I think that NOT being beautiful actually forced me to look deeper at myself and not reply on exterior appearance for my confidence. It was a long and difficult journey but I got there.

The funny thing is, looking back at photos of myself as a young woman, I really was NOT unattractive at all, in fact quite pretty from a superficial point of view. It was lack of confidence that made me feel ugly, and that led to me being a mousy, tongue-tied sort of person that in turn didn't attract others, or caused others to underestimate me. I'm still not good at talking and will never be the life and soul of the party!

Cripes @Malahaha, if Susan Boyle were young and attractive she might not have been treated like a circus act. She's an example of the opposite of the Halo effect, described above.