General thread on UK Cycling's inclusion policy

[CaraDuneRedux]

Not mentioning specific cases because we're not allowed to, but MichaelMumsnet did say we could copy posts that weren't about specific individuals.

So here's what I think is the underlying motivation. Suppose hypothetically one were to find an athlete who wanted to transition who already had a slew of 1st places/ fastest times in men's cycling events in excess of 2 minutes faster than the best UK women. What might motivate UK Cycling's enthusiasm for inclusion? Here's what I wrote on the other thread:

British cycling are already counting up the medal tally in the 2024 Olympics.

What they don't realise is that the USA, Russia, China will all be busy finding their own outstanding trans cyclists even as I type.

In fact given how repressive Russia and China are about gay rights, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some up-and-coming gay cyclists getting heavily pressured...

Another post of mine from the other thread:

I fear what we're going to see is a race to the bottom among national sporting bodies/coaches (with apologies to Quadzilla who clearly does have a conscience - but we all know there are coaches out there who will do anything for a win). As soon as it's okay to have transwomen on your national squad, every national squad will want one (or ten) because they won't be prepared to give up on the chance of medals by having only women on their squad.

In fact, we've seen this done in more legitimate ways in other sports - GB rowing in the run up to the 2012 Olympics went looking for very good, and importantly, very tall "also-rans" in other sports and said "hey, would you like to try rowing?"

I could see a lot of high profile sports "talent spotting" among trans identifying teens. The only thing that might put the brakes on slightly is there are far fewer trans-identifying natal boys than girls.

It's really bizarre that someone is happy to be interviewed and photographed for several public mainstream articles, but Mumsnet is worried that they might be upset that some women are discussing the content of their interviews on an online forum.
I'm sick of being told to be quiet, be kind, be inclusive, and it's why we now have men playing rugby against women. Let's not be quiet anymore or our daughters and their daughters will have no sport for themselves.

I’m too angry to type anything meaningful but thank you for starting another thread.
I’m sick of being told to shut up.

It's infuriating, but hopefully if we can point people in the direction of google, and keep the discussion live, it will help in some small way.

Here's a couple of references I rescued from the original thread:

The Times on the Karolinska Institute research showing the effects of male puberty don't magically disappear when a male-bodied competitor starts taking oestrogen.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-row-stoked-by-new-findings-3pwxjqqrp

and the actual research paper:
academic.oup.com/jcem/article/105/3/e805/5651219

(Also going to try to stick to my new policy of using the phrase "competitor who has been through male puberty" for the avoidance of both doubt, and the rohypnol like effects of language.)

Also Ross Tucker's headline infographic from the 84 papers used as the basis for World Rugby's recent recommendation that, due to the 30% greater injury faced by women players in tackles against players who had been through male puberty, players who had been through male puberty should not compete in international rugby, regardless of hormone levels.

Gah this is ridiculous that we have to talk in code. Fuck.

Anyways, thank you for re-starting the thread. I was reading more than posting. Commiserating.

The rugby table shows incredibly clearly the advantage that BETMAPs ('BEen Through MAle Puberty) have over natal women.

If women's sports admit BETMAPs, natal women might as well forget it.

I so resent having to use 'natal women' for the sex class formerly known as women. Or, as I call them in my day-to-day speech, women.

I think on this thread we can just talk about women and BETMAPs or competitors who have been through male puberty.

Not saying natal women, or biological women, or anything else.

The word "woman" is already taken.

I can’t believe the cycling thread was deleted. WTF!

9years
I imagine MNHQ were being mightily spammed with complaints. Not saying they should acquiesce though.
People like your man Giles with his creepy utility to scrape Mumsnet for "offensive terms"

I'm sorry but I think mumsnet was totally in the wrong to delete that thread

So British Cycling can promote individuals to support their policies. And they do this because a human personal story is very effective for getting sympathy.

And sky sports and itv can promote this.

But we're not allowed to discuss these people whose stories are being used to promote policies which benefit themselves?

The fucking thread went? Why? Too much reality?

Fuck's sake.

This is an important topic.. the facts are in the public domain. We should be allowed to discuss it.

Do we know which people made up the BCTransgender Policy? Was it as one-sided as the IOC’s?

Stonewall. They’ve also had group training from Gendered Intelligence last summer according to my sources.
I have emails from BC from 2018 that specifically asked us if we (female volunteers) would be happy to be involved in putting together this policy and they have never consulted us or any of their female membership.

If cycling can legitimately field BETMAPs in women's events then this trickle will become a flood.
If it's all about medals, then the person most likely to get them will be in the team.

For some reason that deletion reminds me of reading the Times comments on the rugby story this morning. Someone commented "We are seeing this in the reporting of crime ,where transwomen who rape etc are listed as women's crime stats.They are so obviously male." Peter, probably a perfectly reasonable man, commented, "I don't see it." Because most people don't see it. It is not allowed to be spelled out because of "reasons". (Journalist guidelines)

Now the Emma/Zach story has been deleted. We are not allowed to talk about this very important development that impacts on women on a site run for women. Because people would see it and perfectly reasonable people like Peter might change their minds. Can't have that. What was the stated reason for deletion? Was it because we were talking about a specific person, the same person who had a whole article about them with names, several photographs, basically every damn thing? Ok.

I'm glad this thread has been started. My daughter and I cycle and I feel it's very important to keep abreast of potential changes like these in the cycling world. Thank you.

THIS is the policy announcement for those that missed it on the last thread.

THIS is a link to the Board who have signed this off

One of the Board members has this on their bio.
“A former head of campaigning and media at the Women’s Sport and Fitness Foundation, Alex’s insight is invaluable in assisting British Cycling in its ambition of getting one million more women cycling by 2020. Alex is chair of the Get Britain Cycling Commission“

What’s especially frustrating in Scotland is that volunteers have done an amazing job with Youth Girl racers, bringing them together for special off-bike events covering their physiology etc and getting a sense of community between the girl racers. They’ve got events for the Scottish Women and Girls in Sports week ( next week). Yet I bet none of these people who are actually going out of their way in girls cycling were asked for any input.

Can someone relink the Twitter thread?

Thanks for starting this thread Cara

I thought we can use "male"? It's not on the list, and we should be able to use biological terms on a parenting website of all places.

British Cycling has decided to let male athletes take women's places. That's the problem and the reason why these discussions are happening.

I am shocked that last thread was deleted. Looking at the link to the British Cycling board members - thanks Quadzilla - there are no ex elite competitive cyclists.
Thanks for starting the thread Cara.

@FWRLurker

Can someone relink the Twitter thread?

No, because it will get the thread deleted.

However "British Cycling", "trans" and "Sky Sports" should bring up some hits that may be of relevance.