Deborah Soh: The End of Gender

[Gncq]

www.amazon.co.uk/End-Gender-Debunking-Identity-Society/dp/1982132515?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Hello, anyone read this?
Should i get it?

She was on Benjamin Boyce - I think it's good, haven't read it but from what I hear it's broadly GC (critical of gender roles).

She did a really interesting podcast with Jo Rogan, here:

I've become cynical in my old age... In the blurb, she claims to be an "expert in sex/gender" well we all know the types who claim to be experts in this field and where that leads!

I thought here would be the best place to check.

Thanks for the link persistentwoman I shall check it out.

I have it but haven’t read it yet. She is gender critical. She does also mix up sex and gender too much I think (from her interviews - will have to see in book). She is pro-porn. She has said she isn’t a feminist. I think she’s interesting to have in the debate.

She's great. Thoughtful, clever and bluntly honest.

I saw a brief talk of hers and I'm pretty sure she believes in pink/blue brains. I remember a "better than 50% detection of male/female brains" line. I think she deliberately conflated gender and sex, there is no "gender" only the sexed brain which decides roles. I can't quite remember how that tied into other issues.

Too lazy to look now, but can dig it up later. The Youtube algorithm recommended it to me. I haven't seen any of the interviews mentioned. So maybe I misunderstood her stance...

I read it and agreed with most of her arguments. It won't however appeal to some on here as one of her basic principles is that male and female brains are (on average) different.

The kindle free sample is quite a good chunk so should be enough for you to decide if it's your cup of tea or not.

I really enjoyed the lengthy podcast with Jo Rogan. They covered so many issues, didn't always agree and it was fascinating. Well worth a listen.

This thread looks at Soh's arguments. I find that she assumes/generalises too much for a serious scientist. Difficult to say that all her claims are well evidenced. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3998353-gender-is-not-a-social-construct

from what I hear it's broadly GC (critical of gender roles).

Soh is critical of trans gender identity and yet believes in natural/innate gender roles. She sees herself as exceptional because she is female but can do science. Something to do with extra testosterone during development.

Her view is “boys are like this/girls like this” but with room for a small number of exceptions including herself.

Oh dear, so she's a bit biological essentialist? Well ok at least I know now!
I'll think I'll get it anyway.

I've not long started reading it (a few chapters in) and I'm enjoying it so far... my degree was in pysch (at the very biological end of the spectrum), so that might have something to do with why I'm enjoying looking at it from that angle.
I don't know if her take is exactly pink/blue brain, but m/f brains do have differences, certainly in volume (due to our different sizes) and hormonal exposure in utero is likely have some bearing on how we turn out... is that the mysterious 'gender essence'? I doubt it.
Will keep reading, regardless.

She changed my mind about the GC stance.

She changed my mind about the GC stance.

Really, in what way, the "GC Stance" on what?

GC stance: gender is separate from sex, and there's no such thing as "pink brain" and "blue brain".

I disagree. I think, for example, that my "spot gender" (i.e., like spot weight, the one I naturally sit at without intervention) is feminine, and that there are, indeed, feminine traits and masculine traits. Anathema to many here, I know, but there you go.

If course there are feminine and masculine traits and measurable differences in male and female performance on various tasks.

However these are demonstrably changeable by differences in training associated with sex role stereotyping and gender roles, and it’s scientifically impossible to show they are “natural” because a human brain outside of culture is not a human brain.

Indeed we see that what is considered “feminine” and “masculine” in terms for example of work is massively variable. Used to be computer programming was a woman’s calling, considered scut work by the men And thus suited for women’s lesser minds. Then by the 80s it became masculinized And thus better suited for men’s superior brains And women ought to go do more nurturing (Conveniently Right around the same time people started paying programmers well).

Get back to me once we have a truly egalitarian society as a control group to compare to. Never mind that’s not possible.

I think, for example, that my "spot gender" (i.e., like spot weight, the one I naturally sit at without intervention) is feminine, and that there are, indeed, feminine traits and masculine traits.

Mine isn't.

Do you therefore conclude that I'm a man, or that I'm womaning wrong?

it's scientifically impossible to show they are "natural" because a human brain outside of culture is not a human brain

Simon Baron Cohen's experiment on babies under 24 hours old did point to innate differences between the sexes.

@PerkingFaintly

I think, for example, that my "spot gender" (i.e., like spot weight, the one I naturally sit at without intervention) is feminine, and that there are, indeed, feminine traits and masculine traits.

Mine isn't.

Do you therefore conclude that I'm a man, or that I'm womaning wrong?

Nope. Those are just my thoughts.

I'd like to hear you articulate your thoughts further, BertiesLanding.

In particular, for you to move beyond your sample of one.

In other words, it's not a zero sum game. You're not a man because you have more masculine traits; but you will almost certainly be in the minority. Deborah Soh also says she's more masculine, and that doesn't cancel out her findings that gender and sex are interrelated.

I don't particularly want to articulate my points further. Debate doesn't interest me much, because I feel no need to change your mind.

But why on earth are you labelling my traits as "masculine", when they belong to a woman?

I feel no need to change your mind.

Well indeed. If the power structure is working for you, you don't need to do anything.

Those of us who have spent our lives being gaslighted and being told we can't possibly be good at the things we're good at, don't like the things that we like, and are somehow in the wrong for not behaving according to the rules for women... we do actually want to change things.

I'm happy for you that you have things you are good at and enjoy. I'm happy for you that you get the chance to enjoy them without someone coming along and telling you this isn't for the likes of you. I wouldn't want to take that away from you.

I would just like others to extend me the same courtesy, and not try to label parts of my life as somehow innately not appropriate for me because of my sex.

@PerkingFaintly

But why on earth are you labelling my traits as "masculine", when they belong to a woman?

Quite.

There's a big problem with the concept of feminine/masculine.
Female/male is a given.
We have physical capacities and physical limitations based on whether we are male or female, but when this is extrapolated to suggest that we have personalities/preferences/mental capabilities due to our sex, this is when we vere dangerously into sexism.

It's very hard to separate nurture from nature when it comes to feminine/masculine, because we are all hardwired into it from the day we are born.

I do not believe for a second that Simon Baron Cohen's experiment on babies under 24 hours found anything other than confirmation bias.