‘But women have evolved to love hoovering’

[Gladysthesphinx]

I was chatting to a male friend the other day about ‘wife work’- the emotional practical & organisational burden that falls on women in terms of managing domestic & family life (see thread about women in lockdown for instance).

His response was: but women have evolved to be more nurturing; to care about the home (in early days, the cave). This is their role. They have higher domestic standards because that’s their nature! Basically, we’ve evolved to wield the hoover.

The points I made to him were roughly as below. What did I miss? I was so astonished by his suddenly turning into Fred Flintstone that I was rather thinking on my feet.

1. We can’t realistically tell what results from nature & what from nurture, in complex modern societies.

1. Even if in the Stone Age women took on primary responsibility for sweeping the cave, gutting the mammoth, whatever, the burden of modern domestic life is very different. Stone Age women had to worry about starving to death, not about organising parents evening & paying bills & doing laundry & overseeing homework & caring for the elderly relatives while also working full time & commuting. It’s completely different.

1. The fact that so many women are clearly discontented with wife work seems to militate strongly against this ‘evolved to hoover’ line of thought. Look at the number of divorces initiated by women. Listen to women talking about their lives. They’re fed up. Where we’ve genuinely evolved in ways that promote certain behaviours - for instance loving our children, wanting to have sex- those behaviours are generally valued and wanted. Wife work however is not. Women generally hate it.

1. In any event, it’s a fallacy to conclude that ‘natural’ is good. It’s not natural to clean our teeth.

1. This line of argument is of no practical use whatsoever. It’s not going to convince unhappy women that they love hoovering. It’s not going to keep a marriage together where the wife is discontented & resentful because of her domestic burden. So what’s the use of it? It’s a cop out, not a useful argument or tool.

I feel I let myself down a bit- would appreciate further thoughts (apart from anything else because I’m going to revive this discussion).

ah, we've all been a little pleased with ourselves. It took a bit of perseverance, but DH and I (mainly I) got DS1 sleeping through the night. I remember opining back then that if you have a 6 month old that doesn't sleep through, that's on you.

then I had DS2 . turns out I was a bit of a dick

there's always more to learn, and it may well change your point of view

men are evolutionarily predisposed to prefer women who don’t have pubes. Given that almost all women grow pubes, I think that might be the worst example of poorly applied evolutionary biology I’ve ever heard

WTFFF. Sadly Sounds like Most “Evolutionary psychology” studies. Basically they say “here’s something men/women prefer, or A measurable difference between men and women! Now Let’s come up with a Vaguely plausible connection To a flinstones-esque stereotyped archaeology but provide no evidence of evolutionary change!

What would constitute Evolutionary evidence that “men Evolved to prefer No pubes” would be The following (Given we can’t go back in time and ask prehistoric men about their pubes preferences):

1. Fossil or archeological evidence that Our distant ancestors had more pubes than we do now, while still hairless elsewhere (evidence of evolutionary change).

2. evidence that women Born without pubes Had or have higher birthrates.

The evidence they have is how erect men get when they look at women’s genitals with or without Pubes. And also asking them. None of that has anything to do with evolutionary biology.

@MrsWooster

I have evolved to watch roomba, albeit with a fond, maternal gaze.

I really want one of these, yet feel I would have to justify it and cannot be arsed with anti-tech family whinging, even though they are rarely here Also, they seem really expensive, but handy. Would ideally like one for kitchen, one for lounge and one for my room!

Would ideally like one for kitchen, one for lounge and one for my room!

Can they not travel between rooms?

hey have higher domestic standards because that’s their nature
I mean just speaking for myself maybe, but Bwahahaha!

I think they can travel between rooms, but the kitchen door is closed a lot for various reasons, and my room is upstairs!

@NRatched

I think they can travel between rooms, but the kitchen door is closed a lot for various reasons, and my room is upstairs!

I'm very tempted, I guess he'd have to come upstairs at night

I feel I let myself down a bit- would appreciate further thoughts

Coming up with five cogent arguments off the top of your head is pretty good, Sphinx!

Whilst I can entirely understand if someone has an especially whirlwind romance where the courting/dating/living together phase is expediated. I really struggle with the notion of being with a man for years, but the asshole switch is only ever toggled the moment children are born. Negative psychological pathologies are extremely difficult to conceal the closer you are to the person, and the more time elapses. We're usually talking about Narcissism or Machiavellianism, and whilst both are highly manipulative personality types and they may even love bomb you early on, and may even treat you well initially it is usually evident in how they treat those they consider beneath them, which like I said is almost impossible to conceal in the long term. Primarily because they lack any true empathy.

But my problem here is that this is all being framed as the woman's responsibility i.e. it's a woman's responsibility to ensure that she chooses a partner who will pull their weight, and if he doesn't, it's her fault for making a bad choice.

BewilderedDoughbut presents the choice for women as:

1. Have children and be prepared to accept all the childcare
2. Don't have children

But men don't have the choice presented to them in this way.

*"BewilderedDoughnut", sorry - that was a misspelling, not childish name-calling!

@BlueBrush I get what you are saying, but I think robbing women of responsibility infantilises them. It also sleepwalks many into precisely the binary Hobson's choice you presented. If women aren't responsible for their relationship choices, and are encouraged to think it is random chance as to the quality of man they end up with then more and more will just end up with terrible men.

I'll go out on a limb and guess the above probably doesn't convince you, which is fine. However a point of consensus we probably share is there is undoubtedly a problem further back, as a lot of women who have had their self esteems wrecked through either childhood trauma, bad past relationships or general societal pressure tends to make many vulnerable to precisely these sorts of men in the first place, and I would agree it's not especially helpful to say well it's their choice to have chosen these men so that's the end of it. I think we can do better than that.

How many of us have mothers who used that Quentin Crisp quote? Mine did. I do and I imagine(hope) dd will too at some point in her life.

MIL didn't use that quote but did say the one good thing about her failing eyesight was that she couldn't see dust any more.

And as to my DM - when she resumed her teaching job when I was 5, DF took over certain tasks: most of the shopping, laundry and the hoovering. My older DBs did their share of the chores, and learned to cook and iron competently. One of the granddads used to live with us for a third of the year - DM called him her 'au pair' because of his willing pitching in to help with domestic tasks and childcare. I'd no idea back then in the 60s and 70s that the males in my family had made a remarkable evolutionary jump.

I really struggle with the notion of being with a man for years, but the asshole switch is only ever toggled the moment children are born.

But with structural inequality, this is what happens. The expectation the female will be primary carer for kids, work part-time fur a bit, take the income cut, get a job with school hours. And so it goes on. This starts when the kid is born. It’s structural, so the female is also socialised to do this, it’s not just male expectation. (Apologies for heteronormativity here).

Also, common pattern for abusive behaviour to start or escalate once the woman is pregnant or has given birth. It’s well researched and documented.

Finally many dark triads are bloody clever - so no, it’s not apparent until after the child arrives. What happens when a child is born is that the mother’s attention goes elsewhere/is split. That’s when their behaviours change. Particularly those on the narcissist spectrum who need their sense of self continually affirmed. I think the psychopaths are more inclined to just make a decision as to whether family life is in their interest or not. They won’t hang around if it’s not.

Domestic abuse survivor here. I did choose the wrong guy and had kids with him. When I had first baby and wasn't earning he decided that as I was off work all the domestic chores and everything to do with the babies were my job. With 2nd baby, (which I had with him as I wanted a second child, but he was firmly in control sexually when this happened) he tried to put even more jobs on me like mowing our huge lawn. Nothing was ever good enough. He called me incompetent once!
I would say I did have low self esteem when I met him which after over 14 years of abuse was through the floor.
I often wonder if I would have enjoyed early motherhood more if I had a supportive partner.
I don't think it is right to say I had a choice not to be with him as it is very complex. I was frightened to leave him physically, emotionally and financially. I had to reach my enough is enough to finally leave him for good. Now I'm nearly 9 years free, it's been tough but I can't believe how good life feels.
The problem is the Headwork he did on me has took a long time to unravel and some days I do hear myself thinking am I incompetent as a mother and house keeper?
I would say my house is now tidier and cleaner than when I lived with him, yes the kids are older, but I guess now I do it because I want to not because I have to. Sorry , rambling but I hope it makes sense.

Yes, it makes sense. You don't have to justify yourself here, anyone with the vaguest idea about what coercive control is, and a nanogram of empathy wouldn't put the blame on you for that.

And how the heck did a thread about shitty men dodging housework with silly excuses turn into one where a woman has to explain the dynamics of her domestic abuse?

The trouble with roombas (well, I have a eufy), is that they're lovely, but a bit like a kitten. They do the job, but they have a habit of getting themselves in trouble and wailing for help. Ours is obsessed with trying to eat the cat bowl, and gets himself wedged under cupboards for instance. A previous one always made a beeline for the bathroom so he could eat the bath mat. We once, a million years ago, had an outdoor one that was supposed to sweep the patio, and have things to detect the edge of the patio. He never detected the edge, but did have a very cute 'Uhhohh' noise he made when he fell off.

I think the trouble with the hobson's choice is that for the human race to continue, some women need to have kids. It all starts feeling a little bit like the prostitution preventing rape argument, a bit cool-girl, a bit NIMBY - a bit, I'm not going to even attempt to sympathise or make structural changes to fix it, I'm just going to opt out, and more fool the women who don't (but will do the labour to provide the next generation)

One of DDs student housemates - a young man with both money and sense - bought the house a Eufy. It does seem to function as both floor cleaner and pet. And like yours, it's a 'he'.

Am I highly evolved as I do the bare minimum around the house and my DH does a lot more than me? And he doesn't complain? I do have an excuse as I am in recovery after cancer in my spine but to be perfectly honest I have always been very unbothered and for some reason DH just doesn't care. Our house is still reasonably clean and tidy as I try to not have clutter so I don't have to clean and tidy it.

I am clearly not a "real woman". The post up thread about man's work being outsourced is excellent and so true. Although DH is very handy and loves to have a go fixing and making anything. I may just be chronically lazy.

A few African tribes are egalitarian, with men doing the child rearing just as much as women.

Your friend is just dumb.

Does he want my DP number
He can guarantee this woman ain't evolved to cook, clean and nurture lol
I'm a messy bitch who'd live on takeaway if I could afford it

@ErrolTheDragon

And as to my DM - when she resumed her teaching job when I was 5, DF took over certain tasks: most of the shopping, laundry and the hoovering. My older DBs did their share of the chores, and learned to cook and iron competently. One of the granddads used to live with us for a third of the year - DM called him her 'au pair' because of his willing pitching in to help with domestic tasks and childcare. I'd no idea back then in the 60s and 70s that the males in my family had made a remarkable evolutionary jump.

My aunt was offered the chance to return to primary teaching. All kids at school. Her husband said fine as long as his life did not change in the slightest, he did nothing at home. She was unable to return. He’s a prick and it was late 80s.

It’s incredibly sexist to suggest that the choice for women is no children or full responsibility for children. Structural inequity and female socialisation is what results in women being left holding the baby because otherwise as many women would say, yeah, nah not for me and piss off.

Countless men fail to step up after children are born, instead they step down or out. Men know perfectly well that there is no option to just leave stuff undone in the domestic battleground because children need stuff ALL THE TIME. It’s the “choice” between child neglect or do it yourself. How terribly evolved of them. If only those men would choose not to procreate and take their shit human genes out the pool then perhaps men would evolve.

Well if women have evolved like this (unlikely), let's reverse it and have more little boys taking care of toy babies including changing nappies.