Consultation on proposed reforms to hate crime law

[Blooblaableep]

I haven't seen this shared elsewhere, apologies if I missed it. You're probably all aware of the campaign to make misogyny a hate crime. To the best of my knowledge so far Stella Creasy has refused to answer what a woman is, who the victims of misogyny are, and has ignored questions regarding the appropriateness of an organisation who support an end single sex spaces to be involved in this campaign (Stonewall).

The relevant proposal is:

Adding sex or gender to the protected characteristics.

The link to the consultation is here:

consult.justice.gov.uk/law-commission/summary-hate-crime/

Thanks for this. I used the think misogyny (based on a biological definition) should be a hate crime, but now I'm leaning towards a distrust of the whole concept of hate crimes.

There are some initial thoughts on this thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4043925-Law-Commission-consultation-on-including-women-in-hate-crime-legislation-but-they-talk-about-gender

It’s really important that people respond to this and state the crime should be based on sex.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4043925-Law-Commission-consultation-on-including-women-in-hate-crime-legislation-but-they-talk-about-gender

Yes please look at other thread and even if you answer nothing else please make clear that if there is to be a law about hate crime against women it is on the basis of sex.

Is this for England Wales? I think the Scottish government have plans for hate crime legislation.

As I understand it a crime becomes a hate crime if someone perceives it to have been motivated by hatred for the characteristic. So wouldn't it have to be based on sex or the perception of sex? That's how discrimination law works too - if you discriminate against someone because you think they are gay, even if they are not, it's still discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

If sex is a p/c for hate crimes then would it cover misandry as well as misogyny? I don't object to that if it relates to actual crimes. But we might find that many 'non crime hate incidents' are recorded against women who talk about male violence, male patterns if criminality - a person could claim that was based on a generalised hatred of male people and report it. The problem there is with the recording of 'non crime' rather than hate crime and maybe the fair cop appeal will reign the police in on that.

I am generally unconvinced by hate crime as a concept, especially regarding speech, so I'm not sure whether to support adding another p/c.

I've responded

Kathleen Stock posted a thread on this earlier:

Are any who follow me co-ordinating or otherwise submitting a response to current Law Commission consultation, proposing making misogyny a hate crime? Apart from rights or wrongs of that move, the proposal is to extend protected characteristic "sex" to "sex or gender"/ and to extend "stirring up hatred" offence to transgender identity. This obviously needs careful handling to protect sex protections, and also free speech around sex protections.

I did wonder why Stonewall wanted to hitch their horse to misogyny as a hate crime wagon. Typically stealthy, hard for women to argue against until you look at the small print...

I'm 99% certain its England and Wales. On Government pages they always state applies to: **

But half way down the page they make this reference:

" .... Hate crime laws in England and Wales include multiple, overlapping legal mechanisms. ... "

But they should make it quite clear in the introduction.

Thanks for linking to the other thread. Sorry I did look when I posted and couldn't find one!

I think this is England and Wales Manderleyagain.

I am unconvinced by hate crimes as a concept too. I am particularly worried this will be viewed as a win for women but then be used against us, even if they go with "sex" rather than gender. Definitions have been muddled up on purpose and I don't trust the police or the politicians on this at all right now. Thanks everyone who completed it.

Yes I think Scotland have their own problematic hate crime legislation being debated at the moment.

Did you do the long or the short survey?

@HecatesCats

Kathleen Stock posted a thread on this earlier:

Are any who follow me co-ordinating or otherwise submitting a response to current Law Commission consultation, proposing making misogyny a hate crime? Apart from rights or wrongs of that move, the proposal is to extend protected characteristic "sex" to "sex or gender"/ and to extend "stirring up hatred" offence to transgender identity. This obviously needs careful handling to protect sex protections, and also free speech around sex protections.

I did wonder why Stonewall wanted to hitch their horse to misogyny as a hate crime wagon. Typically stealthy, hard for women to argue against until you look at the small print...

Oh all becomes clear now

Right, just thinking out loud here:

A key issue is whether the protected characteristic is going to be the female sex (who are the ones who are historically oppressed as a class by the male sex) or whether it's sex both male and female. This makes a massive difference. There is presumably a case for adopting either, as some existing characteristics include 100% of the population e.g. age, race, as we all have one, whilst others refer only to a proportion of the population e.g. disability, transgender.

If they go with sex (male and female) I can see this being used against us. Surely FWR will be constantly targeted for misandric and transphobic hate speech the instant the new hatey category is instituted? The monitors are bad enough as it is.

Oh I might have misunderstood, it would be misogyny only.

Is there a definition of what gender is? I don't even know what it is. It can't be what sex you identify as. I don't 'identify' as my sex. It is a biological reality, just as my being human is. I can't 'identify' as a gorilla.

@Cailleach1

Is there a definition of what gender is? I don't even know what it is. It can't be what sex you identify as. I don't 'identify' as my sex. It is a biological reality, just as my being human is. I can't 'identify' as a gorilla.

Exactly the point I made in my response to the consultation. You cannot define a feeling or an ever changing societal concept.

Just to be clear - Kathleen Stock is saying if gender is used instead of, or as well as, sex, sex as a protected characteristic under the EA (2010) becomes obsolete and replaced with gender?

Will this be voted on in Parliament?

Adding sex OR gender? Really. Thats fudged from the fucking start, so I can see concerns immediately.

I agree this is really important. See another thread on previous APPG consultation on Community Cohesion and Hate crimes which referred to 'Terf' as hate speech in the submissions. In the light of Stonewall's involvement it's another Trojan horse.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3508955-Is-Hate-Crime-Report-guilty-of-hate-crime

Just to be clear - Kathleen Stock is saying if gender is used instead of, or as well as, sex, sex as a protected characteristic under the EA (2010) becomes obsolete and replaced with gender?

Hate crime has slightly different protected characteristics to the Equality Act. "Transgender identity" instead of gender reassignment which is obviously broader. But even if the EA stays the same (as you suggest, it would probably require a vote to change the definition of sex) this undermines it.

The word misogyny will be dropped. Misogyny is hatred of women, Stonewall will not want that. I said this on another thread but if they can get hate crime against women and then include transwomen, it is a very short step to removing trans altogether and then there are no single sex spaces. This is a real bloody nightmare and if the government don't step in and start backing women, we are stuffed.

Stella Creasey and Stonewall., a match made in heaven

OK answered the consultation. I am unsure on 'hate crime' to start with to be honest, for a few reasons. But while it is a 'thing', of course bloody sex should be included with the other protected characteristics. Should have been from the start.

Sex. Not bloody subjective, different things to different people 'gender'

As an aside, I am quite shocked that age is not included in current hate crime guidance either, according to that consultation?

I have just completed the short survey. Not a single mention of the word woman. I have said that they need clarity throughout this consultation and that merging sex/gender (which is how they've put it) is not going to add to the clarity. That they put into conflict the rights of different groups. Have also mentioned my son and his Aspergers who just doesn't get the gender/non binary. He is protected so how would that work out. Also called for a separate category which would include all of the gender groups

I did mine by e-mail

24th December deadline. I'm too busy in December so got mine in now so that it doesn't pass me by. Too important. If you can do something, anything, like just answer one or two of the questions such as Q2.

Thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4086899-Help-with-Law-Commission-consultation-on-hate-crime