Where are all the trans men?

[cheeseismydownfall]

I'm feeling so fucking angry with it all today, and the FT / Munroe Bergdorf shit show has really tipped me over the edge (with a final push from the Esty fuckwhittery).

As I was ruminating on MB it occurred to me - where are all the fucking trans men being fawned over and lauded to the skies for their bravery and stunningness? Google 'transgender icons' and the results are overwhelmingly dominated by trans women. Why is this? When women choose this route to try to escape their gender, why are they still fucking being pushed to the back by men?

Raging.

It’s possible the reason there’s more focus on transwomen is transmen aren’t as represented in male sports (i know there are some but they don’t seem to be making the same noise as some sportstranswomen). I don’t think there’s many transmen bragging about the victories they’ve made and the medals they’ve won. I could be wrong.

There also is no such thing as “all men shortlists” for transmen to be getting on (and I doubt they’d be pushing many men out if they did, like I doubt men would be falling over themselves to say this is absolutely right and fair). There seems to be silence on trans men’s right to inherit but I’m not on twitter so maybe loads of men are complaining how wrong it is their trans brothers aren’t inheriting titles ahead of them etc.
Transmen who do not pass or non binary women don’t seem to be arguing as vocally for access to men’s changing rooms. Transmen aren’t fighting to get into men’s prisons (as far as I know).

I have no idea how many transmale models are working for Men’s Health etc presumably there’s a fair spread of male/transmale models featured. I mean that would be kind wouldn’t it? So I guess it’s happening.

‘Obviously a woman wouldn't even be able to do that because we don't get pockets’

Cos, arket, uniqlo are your friends for dresses with pockets

Transmen aren’t fighting to get into men’s prisons (as far as I know).

At this point the house of cards comes tumbling down. Transmen and everyone else know that they are female otherwise they’d be fighting for this

Maybe there needs to be a campaign to allow them in? Tongue in cheek obviously

Funny how being raised without male entitlement and arrogance makes you less of a self-promoting loudmouth.

Also, transwomen like MB play into male-driven social norms of what an attractive woman should look like (big boobs, tight dresses, heels, wigs, thick make-up) so it’s not surprising the media wants to cover them. There’s no sex to sell with trans men: masculine-presenting women have never been seen as sexy in our patriarchal world and that goes double for trans men.

Actually, we only hear from white men who now identify as women, white transwomen, as black comedians point out. A privileged demographic with a sense of entitlement and a loud megaphone.

Sheila Jeffreys' Gender Hurts details why transmen end up as the least valued of the sex castes.

I've heard it said men usually transition to gain attention while women transition to avoid attention. Seems to match the pattern I've seen.

This is interesting and fits that the few I have heard of are in Year8 - Year11.

What's the Etsy issue? I missed that.

For an eye-opening and quite distressing exploration of the power dynamics at play between older transwomen leading youth groups and young teenage transmen, I recommend Benjamin Boyce.

Ben GNC Centric is a lesbian and previously identified as transgender. In this interview with Benjamin Boyce, she highlights important issues (based on her experiences) within the community when the relevance of age, sex and their attendant power asymmetries are disregarded in a frankly disturbing way that recalls Sheila Jeffreys and her work on sex castes. (Middleaged transwomen led and spoke over them at 'youth gatherings' and told them to shut up and listen because transwomen are the apex of the oppression hierarchy, and teenage transboys are somehow at the bottom.)

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community'
14 Mar 2019

I follow a sport related website on which there are two regular posters who say they are transmen (I haven't met either of them in real life but have no reason to doubt this). The only time they post passionately about anything is when a debate ignites around a transwoman participating in women's sport, when they come out shouting about the transphobia that transwomen have to suffer and the lack of trans voices in decision making on transwomen's participation in elite female sport. Which suggests, anecdotally and based on a tiny self-selected sample, that even after transitioning women are being manoeuvred into ignoring their own needs and wants and advocating for the men.

I knew a trans man a few years ago in a community group that I was involved in. I found him incredibly difficult to cope with because he didn't get social boundaries at all, and thought that he could take liberties like a women, while also taking liberties like a man, if that makes sense. What I mean is that he could be coarse like a man, while also thinking he had a right to kiss my newborn baby and take the baby out of my hands without asking, as women sometimes do. I think this individual had learning difficults, which complicated things.

I think just generally, it is probably really hard for people to transition and then fit in, because as a culture, we just don't yet know how to handle that, and we don't know what the rules of polite social engagement are for people in this situation I suppose we will get there in time.

In the meantime, I expect we'll all be repeatedly cheesed off about all sorts of quite subtle things, unfortunately.

We see a lot of TW pushing into female spaces and trying to assert control with violent threats, violent behaviour, intimidation, exposure as in the recent spa case, or just vocally making demands and getting positions in women’s organisations. It is often about power and subjugating women and making women uncomfortable, or at best, just not caring about women as long as the male is centred and pandered to. Many TW are pandered to by women telling them they are women, welcoming them as women, patronising them about their ability to accessorise, etc.

Transmen don’t get to do this because their femaleness means that underlying power and threat is not there, and they are not treated as men by other men to anything like the same degree. There are very few areas where you need to be a man, because men don’t have the same needs for safety and protection as a class that women do. But in those areas, such as primogeniture laws, no one centres trans men, because society is set up to protect men’s interests and wants.

if a trans an wanted to join a prostate cancer survivors group, the men would be unlikely to go along with the fiction that the TM belonged there, and could easily make the TM unwelcome by virtue of the innate power imbalance between the sexes. But when TW demand access to women;s spaces, the women involved are always aware there is a potential threat so some pander to the male, others avoid the situation, and some fight it but by doing do put themselves in danger.

I work with some transmen. They are very busy posting blogs about how to address people and to remember their pronouns, while earnestly explaining that the rest of us are c*s.

Unfortunately most of our contact these days is on Skype so you hear a woman's voice introducing herself as Mr. It's most unnerving.

GC people are obsessed with trans women, and there is a lot more transmisogyny, sometimes rooted in homophobia, than broad transphobia. GC people patronise trans men. They certainly get attacked when any mention of pregant people.

@Deliriumoftheendless sure, trans men have appeared in Men's Health.

www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/2/08/meet-first-trans-man-cover-mens-health-europe

Here is a trans man writing about transphobes - well worth a read.
jayhulme.com/blog/transmen

if a trans an wanted to join a prostate cancer survivors group

I very much doubt any of the survivors in the group would be loudly declaiming how grateful they are for the fashion tips and 'world class accessorising' (iirc the Fawcett commenter correctly).

The Transmen only make the news when they do something completely gender fluid like becoming pregnant and having babies.

Tongue in cheek, slightly.

That article is based on a false press it’s dadjoke - that GC feminism is transphobic, and also that its main aim is transphobia and it’s just using feminism as a “guise”. That’s not the case - GC feminism is about challenging and dismantling gender stereotypes and arguing that you can depart from them without being trans - and about protecting the sex-based rights of females.

It is typical of genderism to assume everyone’s motivation is all about hating on trans people. It’s not. It’s just that extreme genderism threatens women;s rights and regressively enforces gender stereotypes, and so GC feminism argues against it. So do many trans people themselves. I don’t see how GC feminism can be inherently transphobic when some trans men and trans women agree with it.

False premise sorry

@WindowsSmindows

What's the Etsy issue? I missed that.

Same question here! Sorry off topic I know.

Elliot Page
Kenny Ethan Jones
Alex Bertie
Laith Ashley
Chaz Bono

There are lots of famous trans men out there!

I do think trans women tend to get more hate in the media and online than trans men. Unsurprising really - misogyny continues to exist. But I do find it interesting how much the debate on trans rights focuses on trans women rather than trans men.

Trans women are often even the focus of push back against initiatives that actually aren’t anything to do with them. For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

Another one wondering what the Etsy stuff is about? I searched on Twitter but couldn't find it.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

The transman I know is doing exactly what he did before he transitioned - training to be a nurse. So lovely to see more men entering this kind of female dominated work. You'll be shocked to learn that pre transition he had very late diagnosed ASD and suffered so badly from lesbophobic bullying that he had to change schools. He made a few videos during his transition, one was really heartbreaking, he said something along the lines of "I wasn't girl enough then but I'll never be man enough now". I hope he's happy and that he lives a life of peace and fulfilment, I really think he'll be a great nurse.

I know someone like that, well I did haven't seen him for years as we moved. It is sad but "I wasn't girl enough then but I'll never be man enough now" sums it up perfectly.

@Gladiolys

Elliot Page Kenny Ethan Jones Alex Bertie Laith Ashley Chaz Bono

There are lots of famous trans men out there!

I do think trans women tend to get more hate in the media and online than trans men. Unsurprising really - misogyny continues to exist. But I do find it interesting how much the debate on trans rights focuses on trans women rather than trans men.

Trans women are often even the focus of push back against initiatives that actually aren’t anything to do with them. For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

Are men generally not bothered so it sort of goes unnoticed?

Transmen don’t get to do this because their femaleness means that underlying power and threat is not there, and they are not treated as men by other men to anything like the same degree. There are very few areas where you need to be a man, because men don’t have the same needs for safety and protection as a class that women do. But in those areas, such as primogeniture laws, no one centres trans men, because society is set up to protect men’s interests and wants

Aren't young men at more risk of violence than women? They used to be but I don't know current stats.

Trans women are often even the focus of push back against initiatives that actually aren’t anything to do with them. For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

But it's not transmen threatening women with extreme violence when we object to the degrading language, is it? Why is that?

Did you see the response to JKR's ''there used to be a name for these people'' tweet? The majority of responses were ''trans women are women'', even from Daniel Radcliffe who forgot to mention transmen, which is strange being as periods, the subject of JKR tweet, have nothing at all to do with transwomen 🤔