12yo daughter’s friends, teachers, trans teaching assistant pushed her to gender identity and trans - conversion environment?

[FindTheTruth]

There's a moving account by a mother in an article written by Debbie Hayton Powerful, scary, heartbreaking, terrifying. The world needs to hear more real life stories like this. It's worse than conversion therapy... AIBU to think the 12yo is effectively in a 'conversion environment'?

link to article
here's some of the script:

“She always wore T-shirts and shorts; she didn’t like to wear dresses and skirts after the age of six,” said Jennifer. “She was very active playing outdoors with cars and trucks, and dug holes. She wasn’t stereotypically masculine; she was just an ordinary androgynous kid. When she was seven, she had her hair cut short and some people mistook her for a boy. We thought that was cute and funny, just fine.”

But by the time her daughter was 11, very different messages were circulating at school. “Earnest progressive people were talking about gender identity and she started to apply that notion to herself.”

The pressure from school had been insidious. “They had a trans student and a non-binary teaching assistant. Because of the adult who also went by they/them, they had to have a pronoun circle every time a visitor came into the classroom. No wonder she wanted to choose something more interesting than she/her.

“I don’t think this would have happened without this intense focus on gender identity every single day.” 😩😭😤😡

“Whenever she was thinking about being trans she got a completely different personality. Instead of being carefree, she was miserable. She shrank in on herself; she was scared to talk to people, and she didn’t want to go places in case she was misgendered. She got a haunted look on her face and told me that I didn’t understand her. It was like night and day – when she wasn’t thinking about gender, she was a normal kid.”

The contrast to Jennifer’s own childhood was staggering, “Where were all these trans kids who were not allowed to be their true selves when I was in school in the 1980s? There were no suicides in my high school. We have to question why this is suddenly happening.”

her daughter desisted as the world was locking down earlier this year in response to Covid-19. The response to the pandemic removed her from day-to-day contact with other trans-identified children, and it also gave mother and child the space to have a frank conversation, initiated by Jennifer, that finally broke the transgender spell.

"She is mentally healthier – more authentic in herself and less afraid of others’ perceptions.”

Related thread:
The effect of lockdown on transitioning teen girls
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3952739-The-effect-of-lockdown-on-transitioning-teen-girls

why?? How did we get there? Who put this idea in their head?

Who put this idea? these organisations, listed in Stonewall's "Key signposting and Glossary"

How did we get there? - Gender identity spectrum pseudoscience + Stonewall education champions

Example. This slide says We need to focus on debunking the gender binary in favour of a fluid view of the gender spectrum.

If these organisations were just getting rid of stereotypes, that would be great. It turns into proselytising when children are encouraged to choose a new identity. Converting people to a belief that "gender diverse children (sometimes referred to as gender variant or nonconforming) are different on the inside ... [and] need to express their 'gender identity'"

so is this the kind of thing those parents in birmingham were protesting about outside schools, was it last year.
seems so long ago now, BC, before covid.
i'm afraid i just assumed they were bigoted/ extremely religiously conservative. but perhaps there is more to it.
does anyone know ?

i'm afraid i just assumed they were bigoted/ extremely religiously conservative. but perhaps there is more to it.
does anyone know ?

There was a religious conservative part, which the media chose to play up, but a large portion of it was about the "No Outsiders" programme, which is the sort of thing being discussed here.

Links to threads:

Gah.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3591339-No-Outsiders

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3568671-help-me-object-to-no-outsiders

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3958502-Andrew-Moffat-No-Outsiders-at-it-again

She shrank in on herself; she was scared to talk to people, and she didn’t want to go places in case she was misgendered.

This is representative of so much of this ideology. Grown men pretending to be women have a pathological hatred of being correctly sexed in public. So the message goes out that being misgendered will make you suicidal. And if you’re an impressionable teen, who’s buying into all this stuff, then you create levels of paranoia about something that’s utterly unimportant.

@tinkywinkyshandbag

Sounds a lot like my DD two years ago. Went from funny cheeky tomboy to miserable depressed self harming androgynous teen who thought she had gender dysphoria. I think social media was largely to blame plus very strong pro lgbt emphasis at school. Now she wears pretty dresses, has long purple hair, flicky eyeliner and piercings and looks gorgeous. What saved her was volunteering and getting involved with horses. Healthy outdoor activity and a different crowd to mix with. I do suspect she is actually gay, or bi. She's not telling us yet and that's okay but one things for sure she is definitely not a boy.

So glad your daughter escaped @tinkywinkyshandbag You mention 'different crowd' which is interesting. Did the 'very strong pro lgbt emphasis at school' involve outside organisations or champions too?

The social media thing is a massive one. Even if the schools change in line with DfE guidance and NHS change after this weeks case, there's still social media and institutional capture

All the time it's reversible, I don't think there's any harm in a girl wanting to be a boy, or a boy wanting to be a girl, or a child wanting to be a cat, or superman....what does it matter?

It's when it is validated and becomes a decision, with action to make that decision permanent that there's a problem.

For the most part, teenagers are finding a way to express that they are uncomfortable with themselves as they are. Who wouldn't be? Changing bodies, hormones, it's awful. But now, the change of 'gender' is seen as a way to fix those feelings of discomfort, rather than them just being something to work through.

So the message goes out that being misgendered will make you suicidal.

agree @AnyOldPrion Much of this mess started after Stonewall & co. applied adult transexual experiences to children and teenagers. Stonewall did workshops with adult trans people in 2014-15, consulted 700 adult trans people, set up the trans advisory group, campaigned to replace 'SEX' with gender in the equality act, preached gender identity and taught children to believe their personalities are ‘wrong’ for their sex and their bodies are ‘wrong’ for not matching their gender identity. Happy children become miserable. Stonewall & co claim children are suicidal and must transition.....

As far as I know Debbie Hayton is a GC trans woman and a teacher. I follow her on twitter and she talks a lot of sense

@alexdgr8

so is this the kind of thing those parents in birmingham were protesting about outside schools, was it last year. seems so long ago now, BC, before covid. i'm afraid i just assumed they were bigoted/ extremely religiously conservative. but perhaps there is more to it. does anyone know ?

same here @alexdgr8

Thanks for the links @NecessaryScene1

The irony

LGB protestors would have joined Muslim parents if they knew 'No outsiders' were transing the gay away

As a teen half my wardrobe came from Mr Byrite, Chelsea Man & the army surplus shop. Then there were my Dad's 1950's shirts which were quite fashionable for a 1980's teen girl.

But I think there is an elephant in the room here. In the 1980s short hair and manly clothes on a woman did not equal "probably gay". I'm not so sure it was the same for men though. Although there were gender non conforming pop stars like boy George and Marilyn, and plenty of New Romantics wore make up, I remember any bloke with an earring being dismissed as "probably a poof" by older men. So yes, people had freedom to dress how they liked and children could play with whatever toys they wished, but the expectations to otherwise follow sex-based stereotypes in terms of relationships and family life remained rigid.

While we like to think we are more accepting of homosexuality now, I still hear a "fear of gay" or "fear of being seen as gay" from some people when children play with with the wrong toys. I honestly think there are a lot of people who are not as liberal as they pretend to be.

Better trans than gay is a real thing.

No-outsiders and the Birmingham school in this TGT article

Quoted in the Birmingham Mail in February Mariam Ahmed, who has two children at the school, said: ‘My little girl is four, she’s in reception and she came home asking me if it’s ok to be a boy instead of a girl, and has dressed up in her brother’s clothes.’

Another parent, Fatima Shah, mother of two who has been prominent in the campaign said of her 10-year-old daughter: ‘My child came home and told me am I OK to be a boy?’

I completely agree, Al1Lang. The "trans family" I knew first is boho-liberal, but very traditional in set up (he works, builds things and is very manly man, she stays home, crafts and does all emotional work in the family). Their oldest child is ASD, born female, and was told constantly as a child that she was her dad's "substitute son" for the boy he desperately wanted but didn't get. The child is also gender non-conforming, and now as a transboy has a girlfriend.

When child first came out and I asked the parents if there was any chance the child might end just being a baby butch, they both gasped and laughed it off - "Oh God, not a diesel dyke!"

So it's hard not to draw the conclusion that there's some very deeply rooted sexism and homophobia underpinning all of this.

Better trans than gay is a real thing.

child is ASD, born female, and was told constantly as a child that she was her dad's "substitute son"... gender non-conforming, and now as a transboy has a girlfriend.

But now, the change of 'gender' is seen as a way to fix those feelings of discomfort.

It's a horrible cocktail isn't it? cocktail = Gender non conforming + homophobia + told to choose a gender + taught they are trans

This article lists transgender school guides which are non-compliant with the new Department for Education guidance. www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/

Stonewall suggest changing gender identity as the only way to reject stereotypes

Gendered Intelligence teaches that anyone who challenges gender norms is ‘trans’

Allsorts suggests that challenging gender stereotypes means exploring different gender identities

No Outsiders suggests that the only way to reject stereotypes for your sex is by living as “a different gender”

Proud Trust suggest that if you don’t fit boy or girl stereotypes you are ‘non-binary’ – neither a girl or a boy

Mermaids teach that rejecting gender stereotypes is linked to having a ‘gender identity’ which is somewhere on a spectrum

GRIES If you are a girl but you don’t feel you have a girly brain, your brain must be ‘hard-wired slightly differently’ and you are transgender.

all promote the non-scientific idea of innate gender identity as fact. Teaching children to understand themselves through the model of ‘gender identity’ encourages children to believe their personalities are ‘wrong’ for their sex and their bodies are ‘wrong’ for not matching their gender identity. The idea of gender identity is inevitably based on gender stereotypes, there is no other way for children to understand it, and it gives children no way to be ‘right’ with themselves if they reject those stereotypes.

The fact is in the 1980s were were allowed to be our true selves without this pressure to have an identity and a label. I had short hair and was a tomboy, many girls had short hair and weren't tomboys

Also me, as in tomboy, liked "boy things", hated "girl" things" but I "knew" I was a girl.
No amount of telling me I wasn't or can't be though would "push" me to think I must be trans!
If she had a "haunted look on her face and looked miserable" every time she thought about trans, doesn't sound like she is at all.

The fact is in the 1980s were were allowed to be our true selves without this pressure to have an identity and a label. I had short hair and was a tomboy, many girls had short hair and weren't tomboys. Some people might remark on me liking Airfix or whatever, but not really negatively - and even though I often got mistaken for a boy, that didn't mean anything. I was a girl who could do what she liked. 40 years ago.

This was the case even in the 50s, the so-called 50's Housewife decade, and the 60s. Aged 9, I wanted to be a boy, had my hair cut short, wore only trousers outside of school, despised dolls and all "girls" toys -- and had a boy's name added to my birth certificate. By my mother. Who told the schools to call me by that boy's name from now on. They did. It wasn't the slightest problem, and nobody thought I was ACTUALLY a boy.
People were far more down to earth back then.

My dad was born in the 1920s. Northern working class ethnic minority. He taught me how to cook and sew because he knew how to and Mum hated it.
My sister is more "girly" than I am but we had the same upbringing. It was just who we were. And are now. And who Mum and Dad were.

I'm internet pally with some younger people over a shared interest. They have all these terribly earnest pronoun details and gender identity waffle in their profiles. I desperately want to tell them I don't give a shit because it is so self involved and dull. But, because of a fear of getting "cancelled", I don't.

@testing987654321

So this article, about how awful it is children being indoctrinated into thinking they can change sex, is written by a man who gets the children he teaches to call him Miss?

Have I got that right?

Yes. That’s what I came on to say too.

In fact, not only is Dr Hayton called “Miss” and referred to by female pronouns, Dr Hayton was also instrumental in writing the union guidelines, I think it was, about how trans teachers in general should be treated - being able to use the opposite sex toilets for example. Guidelines which are still in use, I believe, and which Dr Hayton has, to my knowledge, made no attempt to retract or modify.

Dr Hayton does a fine job of exposing the gaslighting and indoctrination methods used by others, which is to be welcomed, but seems to be reluctant to acknowledge how Dr Hayton-self also gaslights and indoctrinates, which is very unfortunate.

Also, as a side note, anyone else see the irony in RT carrying articles about propaganda?

Always worth a repost of Barracker’s seminal piece:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

As a kid I hate barbies/dolls - I just didn’t see the point of getting them changed (as they’re not real and not exactly needing a pretend bath). I hated having play dates with most girls as I preferred playing army/cops and robbers outside rain or shine. I enjoyed going out on my bike and being ‘brave’ - a word reserved for boys. I hated wearing dresses and pretty shoes as I just wanted to play all the time and never sit nicely. I was a self proclaimed tomboy and changed my name to Tom. Some of my male friends got on board with it but my parents didn’t. As I had mainly boy friends I decided like them that I hated girls.

Could you imagine if a 7-year-old went to their teachers and asked to be named Tom. My teacher at the time said I couldn’t change my name until I was 18 and that was that.

As a teen I went through a goth phase and soon grew out of it. I’m completely over wanting to be a boy now and quite regularly wear dresses especially in summer.

everyone has masculine and feminine traits. It's normal not special. teaching kids gender identity pseudoscience and making them question their identity?! 'Stonewall & co leave them kids alone'

"She replied, “I don’t like my boobs growing, and Reddit says I’m probably trans.” 🤮

quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/

all this sexual stereotyping. how is it people don't see it for what it is. how limiting, and reductive.
imagine if when elizabeth garrett wanted to study medicine, she was told well since that is a uniquely masculine life choice, you must really be a man, trapped in a woman's body.
so by now all doctors would be male, by definition...

That’s an excellent point, alexdgr8.

Twitter thought I wanted to see this ad today.

twitter.com/TeachFirst/status/1315206100304756736?s=19

Earnest young teacher thinking he's being kind, relating it to taking about his own sexuality.

Getting Stonewall training of course.

It feels like it'll take a long time to retract all the tendrils of this stuff, which has crept in everywhere as the norm and the right thing to do. :(