The left wing: Why are so many feminists still bothering with them?

[RowlingsArmy]

I have been following these boards, and in particular the GC issue for a while now.

I live in a working-class Labour stronghold, but I consider myself to be politically homeless as no left wing parties support women, and I disagree with most of the policies of the right.

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of gender critical people are still holding onto Labour/ Lib Dems/ The Greens. I am really confused as to why this is?

These parties have made it crystal clear that they don't want us. All of these parties have expelled women that have expressed gender critical/ pro-women viewpoints.

Why would you stay somewhere where you're not welcome?

let's look at the Mao's cultural revolution or any of the attempts at communism that all ended in horrendous slaughter and suffering - the left has rarely been on the side of peace and justice.

Those are very extreme left wing examples. Similarly extreme right wing examples have been just as horrific.

Post war it has been the centre right which has been associated more with statism, paternalism and illiberalism in the west than the centre left (although the left has always had a strong statist tradition).

Over the last 20 or so years that has steadily reversed but those who think being right is more important than being free are present in all political groupings.

It's totalitarianism itself which is the threat, wherever it comes from.

At the moment, the threat of totalitarianism is very much coming from the left. And it's not the first time. Yes those examples are extreme but totalitarian regimes do tend to be extreme. I don't suggest that only the left are capable of this sort of thing, but only the left has its atrocities and genocides ignored. I listened to a drama recently where a cat was named Chairman Miaou. Okay but you wouldn't call a cat Hitlerpaws would you? A trivial example no doubt but for some reason the horrors perpetuated by leftists don't seem to register. People happily call themselves communists and socialist with no idea of what those movements represent to so many.

@RedToothBrush

Id argue that parts of the left wing and liberals are being run by right wingers who just dont like the label of being right wing...

I think that is delusional. The left wing is becoming synonymous with a totalitarian # no debate, cancel culture fanaticism. The traditional distinction between the right wing and the left wing is that the former prioritize freedom over equality. Now the left wing in the US have abandoned the idea of equality of opportunity for 'equity.' The voices demanding that there is only one acceptable opinion on myriad political issues are not coming from the right. They are coming exclusively from the left. When Glenn Loury and others quote Vaclev Havel it is because of the draconian threat to freedom of speech, freedom of debate, academic freedom. I am not remotely concerned about being labelled 'right wing.' I am deeply concerned about the Robespierre faction and the useful idiots who nod along in their slipstream.

I listened to a drama recently where a cat was named Chairman Miaou. Okay but you wouldn't call a cat Hitlerpaws would you?

I wouldn't, but only because I might get jailed. The ignorance around the cultural revolution and (to a lesser extent) Stalin's attrocities in the UK is because those things happened a long way away and only came to light many years later. My Grandad liberated a concentration camp and many UK families are descended from those who fled the horror. It's seared into our cultural memories.

People happily call themselves communists and socialist

Calling yourself socialist is fine, it's a very broad term covering a political movement with a long history of positive effects- as well as the usual smattering of toe-rags. That's like saying the SNP shouldn't call themselves nationalists because of the BNP or republicanism should be decried because of Trump.

I agree that calling yourself a Communist is exactly the equivalent of calling yourself a Nazi but I think the ignorance is somewhat understandable for the reasons given above.

I don't suggest that only the left are capable of this sort of thing, but only the left has its atrocities and genocides ignored.

I really do think this is entirely due to context. The west has been largely free of violent left wing extremeism for 70 years. I spent several years in a BNP controlled council area and have seen sitting councilors screaming threats at children to try to drive the only black family out of a particular area (they eventually lost their majority because a number of their councillers were in jail for various acts of violence).

At the moment, the threat of totalitarianism is very much coming from the left.

A Tory government currently has more power over us than any in history. That same government unlawfully porogued parliament to get a treaty passed and then a few months later resiled from that binding international treaty.

Etremes at either end are just as much of a threat.

That last post by razzled is bang on and I agree with all of it tho' I was a bit surprised when I read this bit:

I agree that calling yourself a Communist is exactly the equivalent of calling yourself a Nazi

Could you expand on this a bit? It's probs the context. Just want to make sure..

Shit. Apologies. raddled!

The ignorance around the cultural revolution and (to a lesser extent) Stalin's attrocities in the UK is because those things happened a long way away
That may be true to an extent. But there are plenty of leftists who call themselves communists and overlook these atrocities. There's no significant fascist movement anymore because we are collectively horrified by fascism. But there is nowhere near the same horror in response to communism and I think this ignorance springs not just from the general ignorance of world history but also from the continued support for communism from organisations like BLM, and before them various others on the left.

The west has been largely free of violent left wing extremeism for 70 years
But in the last few years, several women have been beaten or threatened by left wing extremists. A university in the states had a complete violent meltdown. We've seen riots across America in the last couple of months. Antifa. BLM. Lots of violent left wing extremism happening now.

A Tory government currently has more power over us than any in history.
Yes, this worries me greatly. But I'm actually glad it's a tory government and not a Labour one who has all this power right now. At least I'm not going to be shoved off to the re-education camp because I won't burn my Harry Potter books.

And to be fair, Hitlerpaws is a great name for a cat...

There's no significant fascist movement anymore because we are collectively horrified by fascism.

Fascism has renamed and rebranded itself.

''Greece Golden Dawn: Neo-Nazi leaders guilty of running crime gang''
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54433396

I was talking about the UK. But in a sense, that story supports my point - we don't tolerate fascists, we convict them as criminals and throw them in jail.

At risk of sounding like an uneducated fool, can I ask what "Robespierre faction" means? I've seen you say it a few times recently, BovaryX and I'm gleaning a vague idea from context but still a bit confused (and haven't the time to fall down the wikipedia rabbit hole just now).

Why have Brits not heard the name David Dorn? Why is that? How many minority owned businesses have closed down as a consequence of middle class left wing thugs laying waste to cities in the US? As for Antifa? Dressed in quasi military gear, using intimidation to force random diners to make the right political hand gesture. Do these pallid 0.0001 percenters have access to a mirror? Are they going for an Orwell Irony award with their laughable name?

www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/26/video-black-lives-matter-protest-confronting-dc-diners-goes-viral/3441636001/

The trans movement can be placed far more accurately on a Libertarian-Authoritarian axis than it can on a Left Wing- Right wing one. And, even then, it's placement is still quite vague. The terms left wing and right wing are both massively overused.

www.nativebusinessmag.com/migizi-set-on-fire-during-minneapolis-protests-despite-flames-we-as-a-community-burn-brighter/

www.koin.com/news/protests/developer-businesses-leaving-downtown-portland-over-riots/

Why have Brits not heard the name David Dorn?

Because the only black lives that matter to the left are the ones they can make political capital off.

BovaryX

RedToothBrush

Id argue that parts of the left wing and liberals are being run by right wingers who just dont like the label of being right wing...

I think that is delusional. The left wing is becoming synonymous with a totalitarian # no debate, cancel culture fanaticism

I think it is completely delusional and could only be said if one were determined to believe that the left is always good and morally left no matter what the evidence to the contrary is.

Could you expand on this a bit? It's probs the context.

Socialism and Marxism are political ideas, which have had various iterations with various degrees of success.

Communism is more specific. It's the political system implemented in the USSR, China, Cuba etc.

It's characterised by:

• Total suppression of free speech.
• Dictatorship, either openly or covered by a faux Democracy.
• A command economy (excluding recently in China) with no room for enterprise.
• No substantial private property and frequent state seizure of assets.
• State control of culture, civil society and even Science.
• Various degrees of brutal suppression.
• Gangsterism, politicised judiciary and weak rule of law.

As such it is antithetical to most of the principles upon which Western civilization is built. It's pretty similar in nature to fascism.

Even the most successful and popular iterations (e.g. Cuba) do not respect what we would regard as basic human rights but Communism as a whole has killed more people than any other system in history (notably genocides every bit as bad as the holocaust in the USSR, North Korea, China and Cambodia).

Tyro
It is my description of the fanatics who want to shut down any dissenting view on a range of issues. The fanatics who imagine they are issuing their increasingly totalitarian dictates from Mount Moral Highground. The people who think black Bloc tactics are acceptable. The thugs wearing paramilitary gear while marching thru downtown and threatening people if they don't chant the slogans. Antifa, its acolytes and supporters.

Thank you, radd

That list is also a bit like Saudi Arabia but without the ideology (Karl Marx) and religion instead, yes?

If KM is to communism who is the ideas guy with nazism?

Tyro
If you mean why Robespierre, it's because of the 'fatal purity' aspect of the putative revolutionaries. The archaeological excavations to find something to denounce.

Like Saturn, the Revolution devours its children

That’s a biased and inaccurate definition of communism.
You could go here if you want to read a more nuanced analysis, which refers back to Marx.
iep.utm.edu/socialis/

[quote tinierclanger]That’s a biased and inaccurate definition of communism.
You could go here if you want to read a more nuanced analysis, which refers back to Marx.
iep.utm.edu/socialis/[/quote]
Presume you're referring to Radd's explainer above (Communism is more specific. It's the political system implemented in the USSR, China, Cuba etc.)

What do you think is inaccurate in her description? I did click your link but that's a lot of text to read through - could you please explain some of the inaccuracies as you see them?

queen

^Total suppression of free speech.

• Dictatorship, either openly or covered by a faux Democracy.
• A command economy (excluding recently in China) with no room for enterprise.
• No substantial private property and frequent state seizure of assets.
• State control of culture, civil society and even Science.
• Various degrees of brutal suppression.
• Gangsterism, politicised judiciary and weak rule of law^

I would like to see the explanation of inaccuracies too.

Communism isn’t necessarily characterised by a dictatorship. It isn’t exclusively defined by Soviet Russia or China at all.

The simple definition of communism is basically
“ Communism, then, is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humanity is free from oppression and scarcity, and where there is no need for governments or countries and no class divisions. It envisages a world in which each person gives according to their abilities, and receives according to their needs.”

www.philosophybasics.com/branch_communism.html

So the workers now own the means of production and benefit from it. Work becomes meaningful and valued. People contribute what they can and take what they need.