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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Hes paid more than me for the same job

63 replies

pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 12:30

I do the same job as a make colleague and I have found out he is on £42k and I am on £24k. I am really good at my job and they are thrilled with my work. I have a lot of experience for my age.

He is 29 and has a PHD and I am 25 with a degree.

Is he paid this much more because he has a PHD or is it a chance I am paid so much less because I am female?

My main question is, what is a fair salary for me to ask for? Is it fair for me to ask for £42k or should I ask for and expect a bit less to account for the PHD?

OP posts:
persistentwoman · 06/10/2020 12:42

Are you in a union OP? It sounds as if you may well have a case but you need advice.

TippledPink · 06/10/2020 12:44

That is a massive pay difference, how long has he been in the job, has he moved up the pay grade? Is there scope for you to move up the pay grade?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 06/10/2020 12:45

Does his PhD make him better at the job?

I could have a PhD in Classics that wouldn’t make me a better Doctor or Accountant.

Do you do exactly the same work? Are there any differences they could point to?

Ask them what criteria are used for assessing salary levels.

SophocIestheFox · 06/10/2020 12:50

Blimey that’s quite a gap. Is it the sort of job where you can progress really quickly up the pay scale? I ask as I work in an industry where it’s quite realistic to double your salary over four years.

But def. speak to a union, join one if you can and you’re not unionised already. Does your company publish its gender pay gap results? Are there any published pay scales? Are there other people doing the same role?

OneEpisode · 06/10/2020 12:51

I listened to a professional podcast and in that suggested some steps to reduce the pay gap between the sexes. One was when recruiting not to ask the current salary. Women say a lower number, so when setting the salary to offer, men are offered more.
This increment is in every job change and builds up..,

LadySeaThing · 06/10/2020 12:53

Wow that's a massive difference OP - if you're good and they appreciate you, I don't think his PhD can be worth that much.

I agree with getting union advice if that's an option. If not, document everything you both do, any differences in your responsibilities or achievements etc, and then make your case to them - clearly and calmly. Point out that you should be getting the same pay for the same job, or if there are any differences they can point to, at least something much closer to his pay. Be professional and positive (though you have every right to be fucking furious, I think you'll get better results by seeming eminently reasonable, if you see what I mean).

Original poster
pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 12:55

I get on really well with my boss and am due a pay rise that they have mentioned. I just don't know what to ask for, it is due soon and how to respond if the pay rise suggested is very little.

@SophocIestheFox I think it is at first but then once you reach £50k that is the ceiling.

I have been there a year and he has been there two I think.

OP posts:
Original poster
pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 12:58

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude there are slight differences but a lot of cross over. I take the lead and he supports me. I have a lot more responsibility. But he brings in his PHD research skills.

OP posts:
LadySeaThing · 06/10/2020 13:01

One way to seem reasonable but put them on the spot is to say something like "I would really like some advice on how I can improve my performance to the level X is at, as I'm keen to keep getting better at this job" (your own wording obv).

Either they'll say you are as good/the same as him, in which case you'll say "great, then I guess I should be paid the same, so that's the pay rise I'm asking for"

Or they do give you some pointers, if they have any, and you say "thanks, I'd really like to work towards being at the same level as him by X date, so a pay rise of (half way) now and a pay rise to his level on X date"

Of course they could increase his pay over the same period but it would make them aware you're not accepting the situation as it is.

LadySeaThing · 06/10/2020 13:03

Oh I've seen about the Phd reserach now, so if you can't do the actual same things as he does, you can say "I feeel me and X are at a similar level though we bring slightly different things to the job, my leadership skills and his research skills, so I'd like a a pay rise to be on a par with him."

LadySeaThing · 06/10/2020 13:04

I think the key with asking for money (from my long experience as a freelancer) is to seem matter of fact about it. Not cringing, embarrassed or apologetic - just "I'd like X much for this work."

AriettyHomily · 06/10/2020 13:07

Private sector? He's getting £ for experience. You can't expect to walk in on the same salary.

The best way to make money is to stay for a couple of years and move on.

AriettyHomily · 06/10/2020 13:08

Please ignore me I read he was 49.

Comefromaway · 06/10/2020 13:10

My husband is completing a masters and wil go onto a phd because he knows that if he does, he will get paid a lot more (for doing the same job)

edwardson · 06/10/2020 13:13

That's a huge difference. Would you consider asking for a pay rise to narrow the gap, and a funded PhD (related to your work) to bring your skills on par? Sounds like it would definitely be worth it if it can double a salary! (And they certainly will say it's the PhD, not the penis, that explains the pay disparity)

ItalianHat · 06/10/2020 14:05

@pickledpancake3 that is a shitshow. If you're in a union, get to them asap!

Alternatively, could you invest a bit of cash in a good tough career coach, to be coached in how to make sure that you get a salary increase, and a clear trajectory towards the salary that your "junior" colleague* receives, and a clear time frame.
*He reports to you?

Alternatively again, are you in a field where you could move? You could threaten to walk. It's the nuclear option, but useful to have up your sleeve.

I once found, in discussing a freelance one-off payment, that I was being paid less than another person working on the same event, except I was doing twice the work (all documented). I simply said, "So X is paid £XX for doing that, while I'm paid ..." and said no more. It put them on the back foot, and my fee was increased pretty much immediately.

I imagine your colleague was able to negotiate a higher rate in the first place, and he's been there 2 years to your 1. The problem is, that there's a double whammy here:

  • women are not expected to bargain hard, so employers offer them lower salaries to start off with; (sounds like your case?)
  • if women do negotiate, there is an unconscious (you hope it's not conscious)] bias against this "unfeminine" behaviour.

Fucked either way. You need support.

Alltheselongdays · 06/10/2020 14:38

You should definitely ask for a raise!

Not the full 42k though. He's been there longer than you and has a relevant PhD. For context I earn 41k with a PhD relevent to my job and my colleague earns 30k with a masters. I started a year ago on 40k and he started 2 years ago on 27k.

At the end of the day it takes about 4 years to get a PhD which is 4 years experience in the field which is brought to the job.

Original poster
pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 15:23

Does it make a difference if I have run a business for 3 years? Its not a PHD but fantastic experience.

How much is a fair wage to ask for?

OP posts:
Comefromaway · 06/10/2020 15:31

A lot would depend on what your job/role is and what relevance the phd has to that role.

HermioneWeasley · 06/10/2020 15:35

How certain are you about his salary? If you are 100% certain and have a good relationship with your boss, I would raise it and let them explain why he’s worth so much more, for reasons unrelated to your sex.

Thunderbolted · 06/10/2020 15:36

@pickledpancake3 have you got an HR department? Sounds like you potentially have an equal pay claim if the work is essentially the same.

Even if it's not exactly the same you could argue it was of equal value.

The only defence is if there's a material factor for the difference in pay. e.g. market forces, seniority, experience,

Blueuggboots · 06/10/2020 15:36

I would go in expecting to be knocked down so ask for more than you want to end up with.
Are you allowed to know how much other people are paid? If you are, I would use that as an example....

Original poster
pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 15:37

With the current project we're working on, the PHD has no relevance. I am taking more of a lead and he is more of a support role. There have been other projects he has worked on where he had produced great research and used his PHD.

There are other larger projects of a different nature which I have competed and need my skills which my colleague doesn't have. The individual who did my role last year learnt over twice what I am earning, but had more experience. That being said I am receiving better results

OP posts:
TheMShip · 06/10/2020 15:38

The individual who did my role last year learnt over twice what I am earning, but had more experience. That being said I am receiving better results

This is what you should focus on when you ask for a pay rise.

Original poster
pickledpancake3 · 06/10/2020 15:39

@HermioneWeasley I asked him his pay so I am 100% sure.

There are differences in our roles but not ones which I think would suggest I should be on the higher salary, were it not for the fact he has a PHD and may use research skills.

OP posts: