Trying to understand

[Tiredof]

So I like to try and understand. I really do. So I sometimes delve into the Twitter accounts of women who champion the idea that TWAW, TMAM etc... especially ones that can say with sincerity that penises can be female, vaginas can be Male. Because I really do want to understand and on some days when I’m feeling particularly depressed and ground down I almost want to be converted to this type of thinking because it would make my life so much fucking easier in the here and now.

Anyway I found the following thread by a woman who writes ‘Romance’ novels. It’s not a genre I read myself and I’m not about to start. I’ve blocked out her identity because I don’t want to single her out as an individual, I’m just interested in her absolute, passionate belief in what she believes in and trying to fathom out where it comes from. Because the more I read it, the less I understand it. And it goes without saying that I’m not up for any members of society being singled out for persecution, oppression, cruelty etc... but apparently that’s what I’m advocating by not sharing her belief system and being gender critical.

I just want to ‘discuss’ this with someone and I’m hoping it won’t get deleted. I’m a serial namechanger BTW. My anonymity is important to me. I’m going to have to add the images of the tweets in 2 lots - hopefully they’ll be in the right order.

So we're not allowed to make humorously disparaging comments about dicks now?

Well, bugger.

As for "cissexist assumptions" I confess I had to google and it would appear that "cissexist" is the new word for "transphobic" (showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against transgender people). To which I would have to politely point out that just because she was raised to hate on transsexuals doesn't mean we all were.

@NewlyGranny

Synecdoche. Factory or field hands. Head count. Footfall. Bums on seats.

Yes! I thought I was going to win the thread by pointing out the irony of being a writer who hasn't heard of synecdoche.

Should have remembered that MN is heaving with smart arses

@NewlyGranny

Penises don't thrill or threaten anyone all by themselves, do they? The complications begin because they're always attached to a person with a head full of ideas. If they've become detached from a person, they're really of no further interest except perhaps to forensic investigators.

I think the tweeter is being disingenuous in misunderstanding that the part stands for the whole: penis means man and if it means anything else there needs to be an explanation,even in 2020.

It's sort of the gun control argument, isn't it? No, of course penises/guns don't inflict violence all by themselves - they require a handler to decide to use them as weapons - and yes, of course the vast majority of owners are responsible, careful and trustworthy. It's just that the Venn diagram of 'those who use a gun/penis to cause horrendous damage' and 'those who own a gun/penis' is a circle.

I'd say a certain wariness of those carrying guns/penises was pretty sensible and evidence-based, personally.

Romance novels clearly aren't what they used to be. Jackie Collins must be rolling in her grave.

I remember reading some scientific evidence suggesting that homophobia was actually linked to having some gay desires.

When someone is as shouty and incoherent as this, I start to wonder if it is overcompensation of some kind for some part of themselves they fear. I dunno what she's scared of but I doubt that it's just social opprobrium.

On the other hand, I could be overthinking it, she could just be thick.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

So adult males are "the most vulnerable women who face the most misogynist violence"

Fuck right off. As entitled males they are the fucking patriarchy. Absolutely fucking oblivious to the actual violence faced by females every single day.

I'm just trying to learn so please forgive me, but it would seem to me that the patriarchy doesn't exactly like trans women in particular. Would you not agree with that sentiment? I think calling trans people part of the patriarchy is a bit unfair to be honest.

I think calling trans people part of the patriarchy is a bit unfair to be honest.

What is the patriarchy good at?

Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice; to ensure women maintain a secondary role in society, in service of men.

Creating and maintaining gender stereotypes which force people into straightjackets of “appropriate” gender expression despite their inclinations and personality.

What are transwomen good at? 🤷‍♀️

“ Transgenderism bastardises the core feminist insight that "woman" is a politically defined social category generated by male violence and the exclusion, expropriation and colonisation of female human beings. Rendered as a Leftist wedge issue, this insight becomes the distorted proposition that "woman" is a flexible human "identity" with which any individual might associate themselves - even fully-grown rational male human beings.

Rather than being a designator of subordinated social class membership, "woman" is a feeling that can swell in any man's breast. Acting on this feeling, he might adopt sex-stereotyped clothing and behaviours, and others must hold these caricatured displays in high regard. Female pronouns must be used, and laws and policies must be changed to newly recognise women, not as an historically vulnerable social group, but as the product of an individual man's inner thoughts and feelings.”

www.abc.net.au/religion/transgenderism-the-latest-anti-feminist-wedge-of-the-left/10097710

[quote DancelikeEmmaGoldman]I think calling trans people part of the patriarchy is a bit unfair to be honest.

What is the patriarchy good at?

Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice; to ensure women maintain a secondary role in society, in service of men.

Creating and maintaining gender stereotypes which force people into straightjackets of “appropriate” gender expression despite their inclinations and personality.

What are transwomen good at? 🤷‍♀️

“ Transgenderism bastardises the core feminist insight that "woman" is a politically defined social category generated by male violence and the exclusion, expropriation and colonisation of female human beings. Rendered as a Leftist wedge issue, this insight becomes the distorted proposition that "woman" is a flexible human "identity" with which any individual might associate themselves - even fully-grown rational male human beings.

Rather than being a designator of subordinated social class membership, "woman" is a feeling that can swell in any man's breast. Acting on this feeling, he might adopt sex-stereotyped clothing and behaviours, and others must hold these caricatured displays in high regard. Female pronouns must be used, and laws and policies must be changed to newly recognise women, not as an historically vulnerable social group, but as the product of an individual man's inner thoughts and feelings.”

www.abc.net.au/religion/transgenderism-the-latest-anti-feminist-wedge-of-the-left/10097710[/quote]
"Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice"

Aren't you kind of doing the same thing by holding trans women up against those same patriarchal standards because of your perceived gendered socialization? I hope you see where I'm coming from with this.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on the stereotype thing either; I find that most trans women I've seen tend to buck gender stereotypes, and are often mocked for it (even on this very board). I just think we can do better than that!

The gender stereotypes are reinforced.

If it was men wearing dresses it would challenge the stereotype BUT we are now being told that they are women. Wearing dresses is reinforced as a woman’s thing.

Girls wearing baggy clothes and climbing trees should be a gender neutral thing but we are now saying this girl is acting like a boy or maybe even wants to be a boy. It’s regressive and it’s reinforcing gendered roles.

Being gender non conforming is great! Reducing gender stereotypes is great! But Allowing men to access women’s loos, prisons, sports, shelters just because they identify as women - this allows all men in.

You can’t have single sex spaces and self identity.

It would be ridiculous for someone to say to me that because I have a vagina, it means I’m over emotional. That’s not based in fact. Telling me that because I have a vagina, it means I can give birth, on the other hand, is based on fact. Yes, some women have vaginas and can’t become pregnant or give birth but in the main, if you have a vagina, giving birth is part of that organ’s biological function.

Similarly, saying a person is inherently violent because he has a penis is wrong but saying a person with a penis can commit rape and 100% of rapists have penises is based in fact. Therefore, people with penises pose a risk that those without penises (including medically transitioned trans women) do not. That’s not being mean to people with penises: it’s just stating facts and rooting your perception of reality in facts, not what you want to be true.

[quote DancelikeEmmaGoldman]I think calling trans people part of the patriarchy is a bit unfair to be honest.

What is the patriarchy good at?

Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice; to ensure women maintain a secondary role in society, in service of men.

Creating and maintaining gender stereotypes which force people into straightjackets of “appropriate” gender expression despite their inclinations and personality.

What are transwomen good at? 🤷‍♀️

“ Transgenderism bastardises the core feminist insight that "woman" is a politically defined social category generated by male violence and the exclusion, expropriation and colonisation of female human beings. Rendered as a Leftist wedge issue, this insight becomes the distorted proposition that "woman" is a flexible human "identity" with which any individual might associate themselves - even fully-grown rational male human beings.

Rather than being a designator of subordinated social class membership, "woman" is a feeling that can swell in any man's breast. Acting on this feeling, he might adopt sex-stereotyped clothing and behaviours, and others must hold these caricatured displays in high regard. Female pronouns must be used, and laws and policies must be changed to newly recognise women, not as an historically vulnerable social group, but as the product of an individual man's inner thoughts and feelings.”

www.abc.net.au/religion/transgenderism-the-latest-anti-feminist-wedge-of-the-left/10097710[/quote]
Didn't read the article yet (that is for the morning at this point) but your comments and the excerpt are spot-on.

Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice

Aren't you kind of doing the same thing by holding trans women up against those same patriarchal standards because of your perceived gendered socialization? I hope you see where I'm coming from with this.

I see it, "BE NIIIIIIIIICE", you have missed the entire point.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on the stereotype thing either; I find that most trans women I've seen tend to buck gender stereotypes, and are often mocked for it (even on this very board).

Currently have two friends that are transwomen and they aren't delusional - think Miranda Yardley.

The transwomen I have encountered IRL (except the two friends mentioned above) have been the opposite from your experience in most cases (and I have encountered many as well as known several in the past - our town is the LGB epicenter of Tampa Bay and I do community theater when I can find a production that isn't a musical - lots of LGB and T participation). The TW I have encountered (again not my friends mentioned above) were quite competitive and did a lot of 'negging' and performing femininity attempting to convince me that we are the 'same' and asked me to host slumber parties with pillow fights (twice, different people years apart). More than one insistently propositioned me knowing that I am not single and persisted after I clearly verbally expressed discomfort (e,g, don't touch me there - unrequested shock breast grab/nipple pinch for 'comparison' in one instance 'just girls doing girly things!' and many other occasions that were clearly sexual advances). The worst (not proposition but delusional behavior) was the hulking 6'+ naked TW standing completely naked within a couple feet of me in the women's gym facilities that chased me out screaming at me for being shocked at h** presence close behind me while I rinsed blood out of my workout pants. I was generously rewarded for my visceral fear and discomfort by being flagged as a transphobe and told to clean up at home if I was uncomfortable. Because I didn't want an unknown exposed penis a couple feet from my vulnerable backside I was demonized and effectively ejected without recourse with over $1k in advance paid service fees - I had to forfeit my money because I can't put myself in a position where such an entitled and raging misogynist claiming to be of the 'most vulnerable women' can DARVO me into potential real danger with the gym's support.

I just think we can do better than that!

People can be shitheads, allowing any male in any female designated place or campaigning for it is being a shithead. If this wasn't a pervasive issue 'being nice' could be somewhat considered but in light of recent attacks on women's rights being nice is the last thing we should be worried about. It isn't our job as women to make space for these males with gender issues (gender, a construct created by men in power and reinforced by other men and moronic women primarily to keep us in our 'place'). TW are part of the default sex thus the world is designed for them - for their biology and physical stature. So even 'identifying as a woman' is demonstrably easier than actually being a woman (no menses, no career crashing due to pregnancy, heart attack diagnosis based on symptoms in 'typical' range, much less risk of rape or murder, same risk as other males for airbag deployment injury as opposed to females' much greater incidence of injury, et al). Yes they face discrimination because they don't 'do man right' (per assholes) and are vulnerable compared to other males (much like effeminate males gay or not) which is truly terrible. But many of these males identifying as women are content to lecture females on how they are the 'most vulnerable women'... none of it sits right. I'd love to be real allies to those actually 'just trying to live their lives' but their silence is deafening as their counterparts continue to attempt to convince the world and gaslight those of us with critical thinking ability that they are women. So I focus on females of the human variety - I center them because as a class they are the most vulnerable humans on the planet.

TLDR; We all are what we are regardless of how we choose to identify... I don't identify as anything I just am a woman - an adult human female; if this would just be acknowledged we could make headway but it won't (for now at least) so we can't. The dogma is too pervasive and the ideology too totalitarian for material reality to prevail at this juncture.

Transgenderism is not a political movement motivated by progressive concerns - it's just the latest weapon in the Left's covert battle against feminism.

I am stunned that Caroline Norma wrote that in 2015.

Back then I would have protested that, OK, in the past women’s issues were sidelined by the Left as diverting attention from the more important issue of class struggle — but the Left had seen the light since then and now supported women’s rights.
I also thought transgenderism was so rare that we could afford to Be Kind to those men who suffered from it.

Sorry Caroline, you were right and I was wrong. That is a searingly accurate essay

Thanks for posting that ABC link, DanceLikeEmmaGoldman. That is a searingly accurate essay about the Left’s opposition to feminism over the past few decades.

The irony is that the gender identity movement, with its emphasis on individualism outweighing community concerns, is the opposite of left-wing.

The worst (not proposition but delusional behavior) was the hulking 6'+ naked TW standing completely naked within a couple feet of me in the women's gym facilities that chased me out screaming at me for being shocked at hxx presence close behind me while I rinsed blood out of my workout pants. I was generously rewarded for my visceral fear and discomfort by being flagged as a transphobe and told to clean up at home if I was uncomfortable.

Shame on the people who did this to you, Fire. But shame also on everyone who keeps quiet and pretends not to see. I understand people’s realistic fear of being abused, sacked from their job, harassed by police or physically attacked. But if everyone spoke out, we would outnumber those who threaten us.

@FireUnderTheHand

Controlling women through threats of sexual violence and constant calls to be kind and nice

Aren't you kind of doing the same thing by holding trans women up against those same patriarchal standards because of your perceived gendered socialization? I hope you see where I'm coming from with this.

I see it, "BE NIIIIIIIIICE", you have missed the entire point.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on the stereotype thing either; I find that most trans women I've seen tend to buck gender stereotypes, and are often mocked for it (even on this very board).

Currently have two friends that are transwomen and they aren't delusional - think Miranda Yardley.

The transwomen I have encountered IRL (except the two friends mentioned above) have been the opposite from your experience in most cases (and I have encountered many as well as known several in the past - our town is the LGB epicenter of Tampa Bay and I do community theater when I can find a production that isn't a musical - lots of LGB and T participation). The TW I have encountered (again not my friends mentioned above) were quite competitive and did a lot of 'negging' and performing femininity attempting to convince me that we are the 'same' and asked me to host slumber parties with pillow fights (twice, different people years apart). More than one insistently propositioned me knowing that I am not single and persisted after I clearly verbally expressed discomfort (e,g, don't touch me there - unrequested shock breast grab/nipple pinch for 'comparison' in one instance 'just girls doing girly things!' and many other occasions that were clearly sexual advances). The worst (not proposition but delusional behavior) was the hulking 6'+ naked TW standing completely naked within a couple feet of me in the women's gym facilities that chased me out screaming at me for being shocked at h** presence close behind me while I rinsed blood out of my workout pants. I was generously rewarded for my visceral fear and discomfort by being flagged as a transphobe and told to clean up at home if I was uncomfortable. Because I didn't want an unknown exposed penis a couple feet from my vulnerable backside I was demonized and effectively ejected without recourse with over $1k in advance paid service fees - I had to forfeit my money because I can't put myself in a position where such an entitled and raging misogynist claiming to be of the 'most vulnerable women' can DARVO me into potential real danger with the gym's support.

I just think we can do better than that!

People can be shitheads, allowing any male in any female designated place or campaigning for it is being a shithead. If this wasn't a pervasive issue 'being nice' could be somewhat considered but in light of recent attacks on women's rights being nice is the last thing we should be worried about. It isn't our job as women to make space for these males with gender issues (gender, a construct created by men in power and reinforced by other men and moronic women primarily to keep us in our 'place'). TW are part of the default sex thus the world is designed for them - for their biology and physical stature. So even 'identifying as a woman' is demonstrably easier than actually being a woman (no menses, no career crashing due to pregnancy, heart attack diagnosis based on symptoms in 'typical' range, much less risk of rape or murder, same risk as other males for airbag deployment injury as opposed to females' much greater incidence of injury, et al). Yes they face discrimination because they don't 'do man right' (per assholes) and are vulnerable compared to other males (much like effeminate males gay or not) which is truly terrible. But many of these males identifying as women are content to lecture females on how they are the 'most vulnerable women'... none of it sits right. I'd love to be real allies to those actually 'just trying to live their lives' but their silence is deafening as their counterparts continue to attempt to convince the world and gaslight those of us with critical thinking ability that they are women. So I focus on females of the human variety - I center them because as a class they are the most vulnerable humans on the planet.

TLDR; We all are what we are regardless of how we choose to identify... I don't identify as anything I just am a woman - an adult human female; if this would just be acknowledged we could make headway but it won't (for now at least) so we can't. The dogma is too pervasive and the ideology too totalitarian for material reality to prevail at this juncture.

"I see it, "BE NIIIIIIIIICE", you have missed the entire point."

That's not what I was trying to say at all. I was trying to point out a fairly obvious contradiction in your rhetoric; trans women are often times condemned by GCs for exhibiting male socialization (which they believe to be innate), while many of those same GC feminists claim to be against gender as a whole. My point is that I don't think it's fair to say you're against gender while at the same time having to rely on perceived gendered socialization to slander trans women and men.

If we are to make a solid stance against gender, we should do so without putting our faith in gender constructs such as socialization, in my opinion.

"I don't identify as anything I just am a woman"

But many TW living their lives as honest and down to earth women would say the exact same thing, would they not? What would you say to them? The whole "I identify as..." thing was a joke created by people at the expense of the trans movement, from what I remember.

"allowing any male in any female designated place or campaigning for it is being a shithead"

I don't see why that's the case when, in my opinion, many TW have the right to have their identity recognized. I would not condemn the entirety of trans women to a fate at the hands of the same abusive men we're trying to protect women against; my leftist heart simply beats too strongly for that.

in my opinion, many TW have the right to have their identity recognized.

Does it follow that many don’t? Who gets to decide which transwomen have that right and which don’t?

And identity recognised by whom or what? The law? Their gym? Everyone in the world?

Why do you think anyone has a “right” to have “identity” recognised when that identity isn’t a matter of fact, it’s a matter of feeling?

Feminists don’t believe that male socialisation is innate socialisation is the opposite of innate, it has to be enforced. The point is that it’s not optional and you are generally socialised according to your sex, which is the innate part. But with concerted effort, we can change socialisation, and one of the ways to do that would be to normalise all forms of clothing, play, behaviour, preferences and ways of moving through the world as entirely fine for both sexes. Not embedding the gendered norms further but saying they might apply to both sexes in exceptional cases.

"Trans women are often times condemned by GCs for exhibiting male socialization (which they believe to be innate), while many of those same GC feminists claim to be against gender as a whole. My point is that I don't think it's fair to say you're against gender while at the same time having to rely on perceived gendered socialization to slander trans women and men."

Eh? I think you're confusing socialisation and personality. Feminist believe women - and indeed men - come with a whole spectrum of personalities, but socialisation teaches us that only some aspects of that spectrum are acceptable. So women are taught, regardless of their innate personality characteristics, that they should always be nice and put others first. And men are largely taught that they should come first. We're not born with that socialisation so it's not innate, but it is persistent and pervasive.

@ShagMeRiggins

in my opinion, many TW have the right to have their identity recognized.

Does it follow that many don’t? Who gets to decide which transwomen have that right and which don’t?

And identity recognised by whom or what? The law? Their gym? Everyone in the world?

Why do you think anyone has a “right” to have “identity” recognised when that identity isn’t a matter of fact, it’s a matter of feeling?

"And identity recognised by whom or what?"

By our society at large, obviously. We respect identities from different cultures and backgrounds, so I really don't see why this is any different.

"Why do you think anyone has a “right” to have “identity” recognized when that identity isn’t a matter of fact, it’s a matter of feeling?"

Many identities don't rely on some type of biological component. As an aside, I would also like to mention that the "facts over feelings" argument is quite harmful and is often weaponized against feminism.

@RadandMad

"Trans women are often times condemned by GCs for exhibiting male socialization (which they believe to be innate), while many of those same GC feminists claim to be against gender as a whole. My point is that I don't think it's fair to say you're against gender while at the same time having to rely on perceived gendered socialization to slander trans women and men."

Eh? I think you're confusing socialisation and personality. Feminist believe women - and indeed men - come with a whole spectrum of personalities, but socialisation teaches us that only some aspects of that spectrum are acceptable. So women are taught, regardless of their innate personality characteristics, that they should always be nice and put others first. And men are largely taught that they should come first. We're not born with that socialisation so it's not innate, but it is persistent and pervasive.

"Feminist believe women - and indeed men - come with a whole spectrum of personalities"

I know feminists believe this, but I see plenty of GC people claim that socialization is something that's unavoidable. It ignores the fact that many trans women have not experienced male socialization, so I don't think it's fair to run with this assumption.

"We're not born with that socialisation so it's not innate, but it is persistent and pervasive."

This sentence kind of underscores what I was trying to say, honestly. I'm happy you confirm that it's not innate, but at the same time your writing seems a little contradictory there, wouldn't you agree? It's almost like saying "it's not innate, but at the same time it might as well be". I'm not a big fan of muddying language like that.

I haven't read this thread because whenever I see 'trying to understand' in either the title or the Op's first post, I find my feathers ruffle. Hey ho

If someone said you were emotional because you have a vagina you would laugh in their face.

Indeed I would. But thats not the same thing as saying someone is female because they are female.

I haven't RTFT but I totally agree with this - We're not born with that socialisation so it's not innate, but it is persistent and pervasive. and just wanted to say it's perfectly clear to me and not at all contradictory or 'muddy'

There are some male romance writers.