Mumsnet Towers - Please can we call men men now ?

[Worrysaboutalot]

I do appreciate all Mumsnet Towers did over the last few years/months of pressure, still allow women to talk about gender issues abet with a list of rules to follow.

But now Mermaids now says that noone is born into the wrong body, there is no need to lie on our posts in order to refer to a man as a woman anymore, is there?

Please can the feminist sections rules be revised to reflect the current reality ?

Wholeheartedly agree.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Yes that would be nice!

+1

OP I did ask MNHQ this back in June 2019-questioning if the term trans identified male, might be reconsidered, as is more factually correct....that thread got to about 40 pages TWICE. There were clearly many people who did NOT want us to be able to name men, as men.

On a parenting website, where we discuss safeguarding & potentially predatory behaviour that was extremely illuminating & not in a good way...

This is one of the rules I struggle with, self ID is not law and I can never keep up with pronouns/who has a GRC and who does not.

I do not understand why I can accurately name the sex of a man who has a GRC as long as he is known to be a violent convicted criminal.

So, mermaids have now agreed that no-one is born in the wrong body? Since when? I don't understand them at all, any links please? x

+1, Spartans is stronger than a handmaid, sorry I mean mermaid #JustSayyin

As with the recent issue in Ireland with the young person who was about to be released to the public after being on record several times threatening to rape a woman, the journalists were required to call that young person a female. Even if a journalist reminded everyone that men commit 99 percent of forcible rapes, the public could easily get confused (is that the rare girl who wants to rape or is this really a male-bodied human?).

I argue that the public need to know who the men are. If men stop raping, I will be open to reconsidering my opinion.

Yes please @MNHQ the word salad games need to stop.

Hello everyone - thanks for your comments. We've no plans right now to change our current Talk Guidelines and we'll continue to moderate with the aim of hosting a civil and constructive discussion.

@Delphinium20

As with the recent issue in Ireland with the young person who was about to be released to the public after being on record several times threatening to rape a woman, the journalists were required to call that young person a female. Even if a journalist reminded everyone that men commit 99 percent of forcible rapes, the public could easily get confused (is that the rare girl who wants to rape or is this really a male-bodied human?).

I argue that the public need to know who the men are. If men stop raping, I will be open to reconsidering my opinion.

This young person has been rearrested due to threats made to other people.

As a criminal mumsnet current rules mean I can confirm this is a male person. Check Twittet for court papers and photos of this young person in blonde wig and clown like makeup.

To clarify, I think all rape is 'forcible' but that is the official term used by the FBI in the U.S., where I based my statistic. As MN is primarily UK, I'd welcome someone here showing me how to quickly access crime stats in your country...but I warn you, if men simply don't rape as much in the UK as they do here, you might get a bunch of American women storming your beaches for asylum.

Thanks @Worrysaboutalot. This is good to know. Thanks @MNHQ for that rule! I didn't realize we can correctly state the sex of criminals.

@YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet I made my post simultaneously as you did...sorry for the add on.

Yet

That will be upsetting to sexist, misogynistic and racist prats, but hey-ho. If you must....

I think one of the problems with things are as they are at the moment is that unless you're well versed in this, you don't know what sex a person under discussion is. Once you start appending descriptors for the opposite sex to someone, without clarity on what those descriptors mean, it creates an assumed knowledge problem. Lots of people think a transwoman is a woman who identifies as a man, out in the wider world, and that a transman is a man who identifies as a woman. And that's before engaging with the problem that insisting women prioritise an asserted gender identity most don't agree exists, instead of the biological sex that is a clear and factual reality, is to ask them to concede to the very position they argue against.

Personally, I use someone's preferred pronouns when talking to them, or discussing a trans person I respect, because I want to be courteous. I have no issue in using Rose of Dawn's or Fionne Orlander's preferred pronouns (and I note neither demand people do that, as both are clear that they remain male - always more palatable to choose to offer an honorific, than be bullied into using words you know to be untrue). If talking in the abstract, in discussion around the problems caused by the extremist version of trans "rights" (accessing women's spaces is not any male's 'right') I think it's clearer to be able to use language that reflects sex accurately. There's a difference between social courtesy to an individual, and strict truth in debate.

I do also appreciate that MN has to balance allowing this debate with the reputational harm that resulted, in the past, from doing it. I just feel that the Overton window is now moving to a more open position, and it's becoming more acceptable for women to point out that allowing any male person access all areas to women's spaces, solely on their say-so, is harmful to all women's interests. And allowing women to use clear, biologically correct language to make that argument would be helpful.

Sorry, cross posted w. Becky.

As has been pointed out many times, it is nothing less than coercive control to force females, on a website mostly used by females of whom many thousands of have been raped, beaten and abused by males, to lie about our own lived reality, in case it hurts male feelings.

And allowing women to use clear, biologically correct language to make that argument would be helpful.

I find it's generally ok to refer to TW as being male and TM as being female. It's man/woman where the fault line lies.

It's worth re-reading the guidelines occasionally.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Evidently Mermaids changing their claims does not impact MNHQ rulings. I don’t think we should expect rule changes until Benjamin Cohen gives the green light.