Another example of younger women not understanding that women's rights are tenuous

[JellySlice]

On the availability of abortion in Germany:

She then discovered that most doctors performing abortions in Germany are in their 60s and 70s and are due to retire soon. "They're the generation that experienced the past fights for women's rights," she says. "They became politicised. But the younger generations never learnt how to do it."

The German medical students who want to learn about abortion https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53989951

Oh wow.

I've erroneously believed Germany to be forward thinking on abortion Rights.

Another example of women not being allowed to decide what to do with their own bodies & lives, because of their sex. (Not their gender.)

That’s quite shocking isn’t it? Germany is odd on women’s rights, you think of it as a very egalitarian country, but in some ways (this, prostitution) it’s actually quite regressive .

I wonder if it's the large RC component in the population? Very roughly the north is traditionally Protestant and the south Roman Catholic.

As a second wave 70s feminist who had to fight for just about everything -and often lost - and someone who was thoroughly politicised by the Vietnam war and conscription (living in Oz) I've always been aware how hard won our freedoms and choices are - and how easily lost.

It's easy to forget how it must look to younger women who've been able to take so much for granted. If we take our eye off the ball, the big boys will be kicking it about and we'll have to fight for it all over again!

Germany is a very religious country. In many places you still have to have an 'official' religion that you declare on job applications and so on. It is quite a conservative country for the most part. But of course they are very 'liberal' when it comes to exploiting women.

@queenofknives Really? Compared to somewhere like Poland?

I wouldn't say it's as religious as Poland, no. But definitely still a religious country, some states more than others. (Although I think all of them now have legalised some form of gay marriage.)

As a woman in her 50s, who grew up in the UK, comfortable middle class immigrant upbringing, I was for many years one of those who thought that the struggle for women's rights was essentially completed. How wrong I was.

I doubt misogyny will ever be fully defeated. Each generation just has to fight slightly different battles. My grandmother’s lot fought for the vote. My lot fought for equal pay and legal abortion. The next generation fought against marital rape. Now we face erasure of women’s single sex spaces by TRAs, and the warping of young men by violent internet porn.
It’s like whack a mole - beat one bit and another rears its ugly head. Men will always seek power over women, complacency is not an option.
All we can take comfort from is the fact that we currently have more rights than any previous generation, but all of them are fragile and could be repealed.

@queenofknives When I lived in Germany I declared my religion when I registered my address which was a huge mistake because then I had to pay an extra tax!

PattyPan Oh noooo - someone should have warned you!

Germany taxes people who state they have a Religion!!?! Why?? That is so odd to me coming from the US

It's called a church tax. wwkn.de/en/about-german-taxes/church-tax-kirchensteuer/

You state religion at school as well, or you did when I was there. And Lutheranism in the north is quite a strong force still .

Off topic but OwenJonesCleaner - your username made me laugh and frighten the cat!

he likes to keep my existence quiet @persistentwoman

The church tax is not mandatory. You simply tell the tax man you don't want to pay it. But it's easy to see how newcomers can be caught out by the rule there. Germans usually only declare a religious affiliation on these forms if they want to be known as members of that religion and pay the tax. Also, the East is far less religious than the West.

Women's rights are a mixed bag in Germany - backwards in abortion, advanced on childcare legislation or other parenting aspects such as working mothers caring for a sick child.

There is, for instance, the legal right for every child to attend a creche or kindergarten run by your local authority from one year of age. If you can show the council was negligent in not providing you with a place for your child, you can sue your council. And if that means you lose income because you cannot work, the council will have to pay you either your loss in earnings or reimburse you for the fees you pay to a private childcare provider. Challenging your council in court over this is free, and women, many women, have successfully done so.

This has been an effective law in that it has forced local authorities to create more childcare facilities, which in turn improves the opportunities for women, especially in the West.

East German women did lose rights with the reunification, something that is barely acknowledged today. But even though the rights of all German women in law are now the same, the historically better women's rights situation in the former GDR still has an impact on their rights across Germany being different in practice today.

When it comes to the childcare I mentioned above, for instance, East German women have an advantage, as they all had free childcare from 6 weeks after birth and that level of coverage has largely remained. A fulltime place (50 hrs per week) is often free and if not usually costs parents no more than 50 Euros per week, a fee that is mainly intended to cover the costs of food or nappies.

In some areas in West Germany, mothers can struggle to find any place at all, let alone a fulltime or affordable one.

Or if you want to access an abortion in East Germany, provided you meet the legal criteria*, finding a medical professional to do it is unproblematic. In West Germany, depending on where you live, it can be a nightmare or even impossible.

(Some I agree with or can accept, others are onerous or counterproductive. The latter are in my view informed by prejudice about women rooted in patriarchal beliefs.)

Surely if you openly allow prostitution you also have to enable women to access birth control and abortion?

Abortion isn't even legal in the UK, except on medical grounds. You have to convince two doctors that it would be detrimental to your health, you aren't entitled to one otherwise.

"Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith – (a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or (b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or (c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or (d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped."

East German women did lose rights with the reunification, something that is barely acknowledged today. But even though the rights of all German women in law are now the same, the historically better women's rights situation in the former GDR still has an impact on their rights across Germany being different in practice today.

That's a good point - not that anyone in their right mind would have voluntarily wanted to live in East Germany, but women's workplace rights were very equal.

And I think there is still an East-West split on whether being a WOHM is socially acceptable:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12703897
(Old article, but I don't think social attitudes have changed that fast.)

The ‚church tax‘ is taken by the state for the church. All that happens is you will be thrown out of your church if you don’t pay. This ‚tax‘ was introduced by the (Religion Critical) Hitler regime to discourage church membership. After the war the churches were fine with keeping the mechanism, as it guaranteed a reliable Money stream without much effort.