Witches in children's books

[TotorosFurryBehind]

Now I'm a mother I feel really uncomfortable that it is acceptable to have witches in children's books. I feel like it's part of a historical tradition of vilifying and persecuting wise women and I don't understand why it's not seen in the same way as giving children Golliwog dolls to play with.

Is this feeling rational? I never used to feel this way before I had a daughter.

Fascinating subject and close to my heart.....

I know Youtube isn't everyone's cauldron of tea, but I really enjoyed a series of videos by In Praise of Shadows:

It's pretty thorough and looks at the whole subject through various lenses, there are three parts in all.

Well, I can only say that I've never seen witches as bad. I have no idea what I was reading as a child that meant I didn't absorb that idea but certainly I think I've always seen witches as powerful women, some good, some bad.

Thinking about it a little, it seems to me that many stories are about how people are trying to beat witches, but they're often difficult to do so. I mean, I think what I took from The Crucible as much as anything was that it was about the hysteria of a small town and the men wanting control.

And when witches WERE bad, they were flagged as such, "The Evil Witch" or "The Wicked Witch".

So I'd disagree 100% with your comment and concern.

Typically bad witches in stories are in league with some sort of dark powers. In more traditional versions with the devil or demons. Honestly I'm not sure why that is an issue, we also have stories like Dr Faustus which pretty much everyone agrees are worthwhile depictions of a type of evil with a lot of literary merit. One of the questions implied is what are the moral implications of magic more generally - can there even really be "white magic" as such?

Not that there is one right answer to that, but it's a worthwhile literary subject and children's books deserve important stories too.

Wizard of Oz has good and bad witches.

Witches have always had a bad reputation, that is the nature of witchcraft accusations isn't it?

Witchcraft accusations have always been about getting revenge, land grabs, getting rid of burdensome elderly relatives or step children. Sometimes witchraft accusations are about consolidating political power and / or scapegoating minorites.

Witchcraft accusations happen every day and unwanted children, frail elderly people and people who others are envious of get murdered every day by pitchfork wielding mobs.

Some people claim to be witches and Druids but these are made up modern religions not based on real traditions. Pretty much nothing is known apart from a few Roman sources about real Druids and modern Druidry is a neo-pagan invention.

There defeinitely were women and men who had reputations as healers, herbalists and the like, some of them were persecuted as witches, but they would not have identified as witches.

Back in the 90s some UK schools were teaching about the "burning times" as if real witches were burned (in fact many falsely accused of witchcraft in the UK and elsewhere were hanged rather than burned). These lessons were not based on reality and more than some of the gender woo woo that is peddled today is based in reality.

I know that a lot of people who are into the Red Tent, astrology, the Law of Attraction, and plastic shamanism claim to be witches. They can do whatever they like it is a free country, but comparing depictions of evil witches in children's books to gollywogs is offensive IMO.

An excellent film on the subject which was way ahead ot its time

another here, a cautionary tale for those who claim that we must always "believe the children"

Witches have always had a bad reputation, that is the nature of witchcraft accusations isn't it?

Witchcraft accusations have always been about getting revenge, land grabs, getting rid of burdensome elderly relatives or step children. Sometimes witchraft accusations are about consolidating political power and / or scapegoating minorites.

As an idea it's always existed against a historical background that defines how it's seen, morally speaking. The ancient pagans were very supersticious and really believed in magic, and practices divination and all sorts of other things, which may or may not have been meant for the general good. The early Christians didn't believe in magic and it was considered a heresy to do so, as it contradicted the idea of free will and was seen as illogical in a rational world. In the middle ages however there was some theological speculation that magic of some kind could be possible if an individual has transactions with demons. That remained controversial especially among Catholics - it caught on more with Protestants and in areas farther from centres of learning and hysteria and delusion was often a factor, some of which is comparable IMO to some of the mass hysteria we see in populations today - but obviously the idea of being involved with demons who are out to destroy humankind isn't likely to be viewed as positive. And there was an actual resurgence of interest in magic in the early modern period - for example in alchemy and similar endeavours, usually by the wealthy and powerful - which also fuelled some of this ill will and suspicion.

Most of the modern versions come out of 19th century romanticism and is more like the pre-Christian view, IMO.

I used to love pretending to be a watch as a child in the 1980s.

Most books I've read, the witches are powerful! I would say the opposite to your argument.

I liked Pratchetts portrayal of witches - especially the fairy godmother/bad witch trope he explored with Lily and Esme Weatherwax

Does anyone fancy having an online film night watching Practical Magic together? Followed by a discussion on the topic of witches? I watched it recently.........alone :(

Does anyone have Discord? Maybe Zoom? Because there are people with bad intentions that haunt these forms (HELLO BENJAMIN!!!)..............I think we should only use screen names and not give away personal information. I'd like to advertise is on the main thread but I'm scared that people will turn up to stir trouble. I don't know how these things work. I'd probably set up a group or virtual room and PM you a link or something like that. Suggestions how to make it pleasant and safe are welcome.

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The witch in Sondheim’s Into the Woods had a bit of a commentary on how they were misinterpreted.

@OldCrony

OP - could you name some children's books that you think portray witches in a less than favourable light?

Tumbleweed

I love The Witches and I'll tell you it's a glorious part to be cast as the Grand High Vitch!

oh come on. they're witches. in children's books.

@Cailleach1

Really loved 'Wicked'. Tells it from the witches perspective. Turned it around. Great song. too. "Defying Gravity'.

Everybody loved it, family, friends, media - everybody!

Dh looked at me as the lights came up for intermission and said 'well you seem to be enjoying this ' and I said 'I hate it so much that I have literally been tuning it out and daydreaming ' - we walked out through the outdoor balcony exit (bar), and with a bunch of patrons staring on with their mouths agape in our fancy digs we hopped the rail (at the bottom) to make our 'escape'.

But in all fairness there are few musicals that I actually like (mostly rock opera movies - same for DH) so we're not the best critics for this arena.

Agree with PPs there are loads of positive portrayals of witches and witchcraft. Don't think anyone mentioned Winnie the Witch yet but there are plenty of others, but Meg & Mog and Room on the Broom probably good places to start with very little ones.

What bothers me about kids stories (well one of the things ... how long have you got?!) is that goodness is associated with beauty and evil, wicked witches are usually ugly. Or worse, they appear beautiful when they are pretending to be good but actually they are ugly. And evil. Grrrr that does my head in.

There are so many shitty stereotypes and messages in stories I really wouldn't worry too much about witches.

But one thing that astounds me that many parents forget is that when kids are very little they can't read so you don't have to read the words on the page if you don't agree with them. Make the stories better.

If you have some time to spare and are interested in the history of the representation of witches over time this is a great podcast tracking how wtiches change from:

Evil consorts of Satan - could be male or female, doing supernatural things such as changing the weather
An excuse to just draw fun pictures about people doing rude things
Symbols of evil such as political powers it was too dangerous to talk about
And then in the 19th century all women, and dangerous sexual beings who are bewitching innocent men with their sexy sinful ways (these men had issues!)
Finally with female artists reclaiming the image in the 20th/21st century

artuk.org/discover/stories/art-matters-podcast-the-art-history-of-witches

Most of the children's books I remember had v helpful witches who were getting on with things. I've been more concerned looking back how much time I spent reading about princesses!

That looks really interesting, thanks Anna

Ooh thanks I'll check that out too

I found this Guardian article all about stepmothers in fiction - it's not all bad news!

www.theguardian.com/books/2010/feb/03/sam-baker-stepmothers

(Though most of it admittedly is).

[quote SadSongsAndWaltzes]This is a beautiful book about witches - both "good" but flawed and "bad" but sort of redeemable: www.goodreads.com/book/show/28110852-the-girl-who-drank-the-moon[/quote]
This just arrived! Looking forward to reading it with DD, thanks for the recommendation SadSongs

@gingerbeerandlemonade

Most books I've read, the witches are powerful! I would say the opposite to your argument.

I agree. I'm sure others will remember Bewitched? Samantha and Endora were presented as strong, clever women, not evil.

The issue there of course was why Samantha was expected to hide her skills to bolster the fragile ego of numbskull Darrin.

Sabrina the Teenage Witch had the same failing.

There's a lovely picture book by Kazuno Kohara called The Haunted House/ Ghosts in the House about a little witch who catches a load of ghosts haunting her new house and puts them in the washing machine. Really sweet and fun and magical.