In GENERAL terms, all forms of surrogacy, altruistic included, is problematic

[NotBadConsidering]

And requires a woman - adult human female.

MNHQ have made it clear both here and on Twitter that this can be discussed in general terms, with no names being mentioned, even when a person with thousands of followers tweets about it in the public domain.

So please, adhere to the rules and discuss generally why it is an issue. Personally, regardless of the sexuality of the intended parents, even the most altruistic surrogacy arrangement - as in UK law, providing it doesn’t change - is drought with problems. Someone always gives up rights regardless. It’s inevitable. Either the intended parents do during pregnancy, and the mother and child certainly do regardless.

We have strict laws that mean a soon to be born child cannot be removed from a mother unless there are serious concerns for that baby’s welfare, yet in surrogacy, that is always the intention. This is not changed regardless of it being an altruistic arrangement. Nor is the risk to the mother.

And it requires a firm grasp on biological reality to make this happen. Two gametes are required, from one of each of the two sexes. The female sex - which exists despite recent attempts to deny its existence - does all the work and takes the greatest risk in surrogacy, even the most altruistic arrangements. It is therefore baffling how anyone could deny the existence of biological sex knowing this.

So, keeping it general, and not discussing names, please add your thoughts and experiences.

And in advance to those who have previously gone to the effort to discuss their experiences only to see them disappear.

Pregnancy comes with costs. Clothing, toiletries, extra vitamins, childcare, travel to medical appointments... oh and loss of earnings, particularly for the self employed. £15k is a very normal level of expense for a pregnancy. Some surrogates expenses are higher and some are lower dependent on their circumstances.

Sorry but there is no way that pregnancy alone (where you don't have to buy anything at all for the baby itself) comes close to costing 15 grand. Mine certainly didn't! Extra vitamins and clothes? The cost of pregnancy is not really monetary is it, there are other costs, emotional, physical etc.

However, that sum could be quite an incentive for a woman who doesn't have much money.

Surely the baby isn't taken from the mother straight after birth?

It is my understanding that yes, they frequently are.

Here's some information for women considering surrogacy from California -
www.westernfertility.com/third-party-reproduction/what-surrogate-mothers-should-expect-after-delivery/

Well, having watched the program about Hannah and Jake Graf it seems that they are. Obviously it was edited but it did seem to be that once Hannah and Jake were there (and they were very annoyed that due to Covid restrictions it was several hours after the baby's birth that they were allowed to see her) they immediately took the baby and that was it.

Jake also made a comment along the lines of 'imagine if they baby tries to breastfeed, that would be awful' or something similar.

When Mark from Westlife had a baby via a surrogate, he posted an image on Insta of him and his husband in the hospital, backs to the camera, wheeling away a baby in a cot with a hand each in the air.

I don't know how typical that is though, but my assumption has always been that the baby is removed immediately.

That's so cruel to the baby.

"Pregnancy comes with costs. Clothing, toiletries, extra vitamins, childcare, travel to medical appointments... oh and loss of earnings, particularly for the self employed. £15k is a very normal level of expense for a pregnancy. Some surrogates expenses are higher and some are lower dependent on their circumstances."

WTF?!

Clothing you can get v cheaply (Primark) or second hand.

What "toiletries" cater specifically to pregnant women? And how would you rack up £15 grand's worth?

You don't need pregnancy vitamins. Again these cost about £10 and often come free in the pregnancy pack you usually get on your first visit to hospital.

Childcare + loss of earnings - most healthy pregnant women continue their lives normally - working and taking care of their existing children - until their due date. That's why you rarely start mat leave more than a week or so before giving birth, unless there are complications.

Travel to medical appointments. Again, unless you're agoraphobic and don't leave the house you're going to be using the same travel card/car you'd use for getting around daily anyway.

So explain to me again how, in the UK where there is free healthcare (down to free medicine and dentistry while pregnant and in the first year after) a pregnancy could come to anywhere near £15k?

It's payment for carrying the baby, not expenses. Why sugarcoat this?

[quote TheCunkOfPhilomena]I'm opening myself up for abuse here but I am against both surrogacy and IVF.

It is the most extreme form of male entitlement to think a woman's uterus is ever for sale.

A child has the right to at least one loving parent/caregiver, no one has the right to have a child.

I think we need a huge push for people to consider adopting (and I don't care if this is for same-sex or heterosexual couples or single women or men.

I am so angry at some of the stuff I've been reading about surrogacy today.
www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/09/13/ukraines-baby-factories-the-human-cost-of-surrogacy/[/quote]

I am too.

In this case an IVF clinic made a horrendous mix up and inserted at least two unrelated embryos into a woman who gave birth to twins she was not genetically related to.

After carrying and birthing both babies she was legally ordered to return at least one to the baby's genetic parents. (Unclear what's happened to the other baby).

https://nypost.com/2020/03/06/california-couple-drops-case-against-fertility-clinic-that-botched-ivf/

Utterly horrendous. I understand IVF has brought joy to many people (and I can't promise you I wouldn't have used it myself if I had been unable to conceive) but this is what happens when doctors play gd.

@PearPickingPorky

I find it incredibly unnerving how men are so easily able to shut-down women, discussing an issue which specifically affects only women, which the men have explicitly put in the public domain for discussion, on a parenting forum's Feminist discussion board.

That's all.

Just thought this bears repeating. Perhaps every hour on the hour.

This podcast about surrogacy is very, very good. Renate Klein pulls no punches.

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/05/11/podcast-surrogacy-a-human-rights-violation/

I also lost a well-written post and when I have time, I will repost it as it deserves it's own thread. One element from it includes the rights of all children (The Netherland's and Sweden's argument btw) to know their biology. Wanting to know your biological parents is a desire of many adoptees, children with a parent who abandons them and well as donor-conceived children. Not knowing how many biological siblings you may have walking the earth? And what about the woman who gave up her eggs as a young person, not knowing what it could mean to be an adult and wonder if you have a son or daughter out in the world. The mother is also the woman who donates her eggs, risking her health and future fertility.

IVF that uses the sperm and egg of both parents isn't exploiting women or ignoring the rights of children. It's just bypassing sexual intercourse.

@PlanDeRaccordement

it must be accepted that childlessness is sufficiently harmful to justify any risk to the gestational mother or child and no other remedy for that harm exists.

No it doesn’t. Why should it? Harm arguments have no place when talking about a woman’s bodily autonomy and her reproductive rights. If a woman wants to reproduce, have a baby, for another person, then that is her right to do so. All we can do is set up a system to support and protect her from exploitation.

Your it must be accepted that harm to this person must outweigh the harm to another is a bad argument. It can be easily extrapolated to any pregnancy, Adoption is somewhat harmful to a baby, but we don’t force mothers to have an abortion unless she can demonstrate the harm to her outweighs the harm to a baby being adopted out? No. That is a sword of Damocles you are proposing.

A woman’s bodily autonomy is absolute. These decisions are for her and her alone.

You have misunderstood the quote. This is an argument employed by pro-surrogacy advocates who frame the desire for a child in human rights language and childlessness as a violation of this (assumed) human right, which must be rectified and which frames any resistance to surrogacy as breaching the (assumed) human right to be a parent of those seeking to acquire a baby through surrogacy.

The quote is from an essay I linked to upthread that explains in detail why both commercial and altruistic surrogacy violate the human rights of the women and children involved. I can only recommend you read it. If only to see what the other side is arguing.

Contracts protect as much as they require compliance. It’s a two way agreement. And for record, I am against commercial surrogacy. But think altruistic surrogacy with a contract in place to protect the surrogate is what should be allowed.

Surrogacy contracts are unenforceable in the UK. And quite rightly so. No aspect of human trafficking should ever be contractually enforceable.

The level of neglect and even abuse that a parent has to put a child through before children’s services remove the child from its birth parents is pretty shocking.

The reason for this is that the damage done to a child by removing it from its parents is huge. It is basically better for a child to stay with it’s really quite crap birth parents than it is for the child to be removed and adopted by Mr and Mrs Lovely with their bookshelf full of ladybird books and their endless unconditional love that they are desperate to give.

Surrogacy is basically creating a person and the very first thing you do is to damage it.

Surrogacy contracts are unenforceable in the UK. And quite rightly so. No aspect of human trafficking should ever be contractually enforceable

Do they know that though?

When the birth mother refuses medication or or choses a birth intervention that places her at greater risk on the pretence of the contract. Does she know its meaningless

@SoManyActivities - you asked upthread about the number of 'altruistic' agreements that involve strangers. A UK paper put it at 79% and a Canadian study found 75%

The problems with surrogacy from a womens rights AND children's rights perspective are huge. There is no justification for it. That is why pro-surrogacy advocates appeal to choicy choice feminism and pretend they have a rights that don't exist

Surrogacy is basically creating a person and the very first thing you do is to damage it.

Yes, Mumoftwoyoungkids this, exactly this!

In voluntary adoptions after birth there is, in many countries, a delay built in before the child is handed over. But with surrogacy? Immediate removal. That is cruel and unusual punishment for any newborn. In my view, unless either is in danger, or the mother is a danger to the newborn, there should be no separation at birth.

We have so much research now about separation trauma. Which almost always involves an unplanned separation forced by circumstances. Yet here we are, inflicting it on purpose?

[quote PegasusRex]@SoManyActivities - you asked upthread about the number of 'altruistic' agreements that involve strangers. A UK paper put it at 79% and a Canadian study found 75%

The problems with surrogacy from a womens rights AND children's rights perspective are huge. There is no justification for it. That is why pro-surrogacy advocates appeal to choicy choice feminism and pretend they have a rights that don't exist[/quote]
And the Law Commission's own almost 600 page report found that women who are disadvantaged and/or living in poverty are overrepresented amongst surrogates. As are women who do not fully understand what they are agreeing to.

They very much seemed to include this assessment reluctantly. Almost grudgingly. Because they want commercial surrogacy in the UK that removes existing rights from the birth mothers in exchange for better remuneration. And yet, they admitted this.

The UK's extremely tightly regulated altruistic surrogacy features predominantly women from lower social classes, women who cannot give truly informed consent. You don't need a PhD to understand that even more women like that would be exploited if the rules are loosened.

@SoManyActivities - you asked upthread about the number of 'altruistic' agreements that involve strangers. A UK paper put it at 79% and a Canadian study found 75%

Thanks. A surrogacy arrangement with a stranger is not really truly 'altruistic' at all is it?

The UK's extremely tightly regulated altruistic surrogacy features predominantly women from lower social classes, women who cannot give truly informed consent. You don't need a PhD to understand that even more women like that would be exploited if the rules are loosened.
Given the state of academic "feminism" and misogyny in our institutions, it's sadly the PhD people that I'd suspect might be least willing to see these basics.

Sorry but there is no way that pregnancy alone (where you don't have to buy anything at all for the baby itself) comes close to costing 15 grand.

Firstly - I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you did not add up the costs of your pregnancy (or separately itemise them on a spreadsheet and keep all your receipts). I did. I can tell you to the penny what mine cost. And it definitely adds up. I have a senior job and primark clothes are just not appropriate for my role. I spent about £1.2k on clothes shoes and underwear for during pregnancy and for after birth, until I fit back into my own clothes. Bras, tights, leggings, shoes (my feet swelled). Pregnancy pillow, birthing ball, parking at the hospital, travel costs. It adds up.

The biggest expenses that surrogates incur are often loss of earnings. That was certainly the case for us. My partner took 2 weeks of unpaid leave (not entitled to paternity leave for obvious reasons) to look after me and our existing children immediately after birth. That was £3k straight off.

If a surrogate is self employed with no sick pay/needs to take a significant period of time off work (e.g. if she has HG) then I can easily seen how expenses would reach this value.

So many great posts here.

To update, I would say generally to anyone from Twitter who is casually observing this thread that it’s a perfectly legitimate topic to discuss and people on Twitter don’t generally get to police what happens here, just so you know. Thanks to MNHQ for allowing this general discussion.

There also seems to be a general belief that surrogacy doesn’t result in babies being removed immediately from the mother and posted on Instagram but I’m always reminded of this case, with its photo, arms aloft, posted on Instagram:

evoke.ie/2019/10/25/showbiz/mark-feehily-opens-up-about-surrogacy-and-shares-first-video-of-newborn-baby

Regarding "altruistic" surrogacy, the Law Commission recognised that lots of people make money off the back of surrogacy - lawyers, agencies, doctors and private IVF clinics. The woman,uniquely, is expected to do it all for free ...which could seem a little, er, exploitative.

So they are tying themselves in knots to come up with a legal fiction that the UK does not have commercial surrogacy, however surrogates are rewarded for their trouble, but it is only "expenses".

Anyone else spend £20k on being pregnant? ( No buying cots, buggies and nappies as there will be no baby. No paying medical expenses as that falls to the commissioning parents). Just the cost of being pregnant for nine months. 🤷‍♀️

Whoops. Forgot the screen shots.

It’s de facto commercial in the UK already, with the high ‘expenses’.

It seems that for altruistic surrogacy there are supporters, provided the mother is protected legally. But even then to cover all eventualities that raises many questions including financial:

What if the mother has severe hyperemesis gravidarum and is hospitalised several times and cannot work throughout pregnancy?

What if she suffers any other complication and cannot work? Do the intended parents compensate for loss of earnings? What if the woman has a husband who has to change his work to look after any other kids they might have? Is he compensated?

What if there is a chromosomal or genetic abnormality detected at 12 weeks and the intended parents don’t want the baby any more? Does protecting the surrogate mean continuing the pregnancy or aborting the fetus?

What if there is an abnormality that results in multiple interventions, such as amniocentesis for fluid removal for a condition causing polyhydramnios? Or Rhesus disease leading to the need for fetal transfusions?

What if there are twins? What if one has a severe abnormality and requires selective reduction? Is she still compensated for a twin pregnancy, or only up until the fetus is terminated?

What if the mother has a caesarean and can’t drive for 6 weeks after? Will she still be compensated?

What if the mother suffers a pulmonary embolism and requires 6 months of anti-coagulation and ongoing doctors visits? Will they be compensated?

What if she suffers a stroke and has lifelong disability requiring loss of work in herself, and a partner she may have? Will she be compensated for life?

If the intended parents can’t cover that cost financially, will any insurance company?

What if the baby has a lifelong disability and the intended parents don’t want to take the baby home. What protection should be in place? Is the mother legally protected from not having to take the baby? Is a legal framework going to exist the guarantees the baby will go into care?

These are just some scenarios that happen daily in some pregnancies or occasionally, or rarely. All of these scenarios I have come across in real life.

How on earth can you legislate for all of this? You. Just. Can’t.

Which is why the only way altruistic surrogacy ever works is that all the parties involved cross their fingers and hope nothing goes wrong and breathe a huge sigh of relief when it doesn’t and everything ends up peachy. But the reality is that it’s inevitable that even in the most altruistic of situations, something will go wrong.

So I’ll be interested to hear how those in favour plan to deal with that, legally.

@witchesaremysisters

1) Talk us through your life circumstances at the time you made this decision (how did it come about, what was your employment, did you have children/a partner of your own, who suggested what, and what was your socio-economic status at the time)?

Happily married, post grad educated, home owner, high earner, full time education, two primary school aged children. My partner, children and parents and I discussed the situation before I offered to be a surrogate for my friends by writing them a letter. All were very supportive. Enough detail for you? I also took legal advice, took out life insurance, amended my will, had GP checks, medical screening and counselling before commencing treatment.

2) How did you find the parents?

Long term friends (15 years)

Who did you give your baby to and why?

I find question this SO offensive. I did not 'give' 'my baby' to anyone. I carried a pregnancy for close friends.

Do you have any contact with the child?

Yes very frequently. We exchange pictures and messages several times a week. We meet up regularly (only 4 times this year though due to COVID and them living a long way away.)

Was there any friction between you and these parents?

No never

Were there any agencies involved?

Do you mean social services? No, other than that CAFCASS did the report to support the Parental Order Hearing. This is standard.

3) Did you provide your gamete as well as carry the child?

No it was gestational surrogacy.

What was the pregnancy/childbirth like, were there any complications during? What about now/later on?

Smooth and straightforward, as with my own children. I have had 3 labours, none longer than 6 hours, no tearing, no medical interventions. Never been in hospital for more than half a day.

4) What was your financial compensation? If you went through an agency/clinic of some description, how much money did they take?

I did not pay any money to an agency. My compensation is my business but I have an itemised line by line breakdown which was good enough for the Family Court.

5) Did you have a contract? What was it like? Who brokered it (was it a legal firm, for example)?

We had a surrogacy agreement. You cannot have a surrogacy contract in UK law. It was hugely helpful and comprehensive and independently facilitated by an experienced surrogate. It covered everything from antenatal tests, termination, announcing the birth, expenses, finding out the gender, planning the funeral.... a level of planning I never went into with my own pregnancies, but which ensured we were all aligned in our thinking before we started treatment.

Could you abort the foetus for any reason?

Of course

Could you keep the baby if you wanted to?

Why would I want to keep someone else's baby?? If I wanted another baby I would have had one with my husband!

Were there stipulations/restrictions on your activities?

No - we discussed things like alcohol consumption etc when developing our agreement but ultimately it was up to me. Surrogacy requires a very high level of trust and understanding between the parties.

What happened if you didn't comply with some part of the contract (e.g. missed a medical appointment, had an alcoholic drink)?

Not applicable. You are thinking of commercial surrogacy (which exists in other countries but not in the UK.)

6)What parts of your pregnancy/childbirth care was delivered by the NHS and what by the private sector?

Counselling, screening, embryo transfer at a private clinic along with viability scan. The rest through the NHS - usual scans. Straightforward delivery in an NHS hospital then home to bed for a good night's sleep!

7) What do you do in terms of surrogacy now?

I don't understand the question. I was a surrogate but it is only one part of who I am. Mainly I work and look after my children! I am very proud though of the happy family I helped to create.

Have you ever recommended to any of your friends/other women that they should also be surrogates?

No. It is such a personal choice. If I was asked I would advise anyone thinking about it does a huge amount of research and soul searching. It is certainly not for everyone and not something I would ever 'recommend' - but I don't tend to 'recommend' how other people should live their lives anyway.

Do you speak in professional or organisational settings about your experiences to people who might be "embarking on a surrogacy journey"?

No