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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Judith Butler has spoken

373 replies

lionheart · 22/09/2020 23:33

Damn.

www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times

'If we look closely at the example that you characterise as “mainstream” we can see that a domain of fantasy is at work, one which reflects more about the feminist who has such a fear than any actually existing situation in trans life. The feminist who holds such a view presumes that the penis does define the person, and that anyone with a penis would identify as a woman for the purposes of entering such changing rooms and posing a threat to the women inside. It assumes that the penis is the threat, or that any person who has a penis who identifies as a woman is engaging in a base, deceitful, and harmful form of disguise. This is a rich fantasy, and one that comes from powerful fears, but it does not describe a social reality. Trans women are often discriminated against in men’s bathrooms, and their modes of self-identification are ways of describing a lived reality, one that cannot be captured or regulated by the fantasies brought to bear upon them. The fact that such fantasies pass as public argument is itself cause for worry.'

OP posts:
nepeta · 23/09/2020 19:37

Nussbaum's analysis reminds us that Butler's queer theory -based ideas are not even intended to improve societal fairness (because nothing will). They are just to poke fun at gender roles and norms (but not at the male ones?) and to cause confusion,, and that confusion is intended to blur the clear borders between men and women etc.

In reality a lot of that just seems to violate any boundaries women might have. Which doesn't actually blur gender stereotypes at all as women are not really allowed to have boundaries.

Goosefoot · 23/09/2020 19:41

@WeeBisom

About the reality point - Butler would say that whatever reality is, it is unknowable to us and irrelevant. She would say the very emphasis on focus on 'reality' is privileging a particular picture of the world. For example, MacKinnon gives an example she heard from a postmodernist (male)scholar - imagine an island where the men believe they have to sacrifice a young virgin girl every year or otherwise they won't be able to maintain erections (yes, really, that's the example :S) That's nonsense, an anthropologist says. Killing the girl has nothing to do with your virility. But in fact, because this culture believes it so deeply, if they don't sacrifice a girl each year they get so anxious they can't actually get it up. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Their beliefs and reality combine to form a new reality. It really is true for them that they have to kill a girl each year to maintain erections. (MacKinnon hated this example and wryly commented that of course the men couldn't just be told to change their stupid beliefs. Of course a woman has to die for men's boners.)

By the way, I also think that Judy doesn't really believe any of the shit she spouts. In her feminist texts, she tells women that we can't actually overthrow patriarchy, or get out of oppressive power structures, but we can always be 'playfully subversive' of the dominant paradigm. Yet if you read her later works on Gaza you get the sense she feels very strongly that there is an injustice going on here, an injustice that has to be combatted. She doesn't tell Palestinians just to 'queer' their oppression. It's also very funny to me that she says that gender critical feminism isn't mainstream feminism and is actually a very minor position. Um...isn't her whole schtick to be deeply critical and skeptical of mainstream ideologies? Gender critical feminism should be praised as the plucky subversive postmodern underdog - gender critical feminism IS queer feminism because it turns standard feminism on its head.

In my experience people who claim that reality, metaphysics, ethics, are things we don't have access to, never, ever actually live as if that was true. They all behave as if there are empirical material realities, as if there are underlying formal structures in reality, and moral truths.

It makes me think of St Augustines critisim of the Platonists who rejected Christianity, depite it answering the problem they wanted solved. He said they ignored that because it would mean that they they would no longer be free to hold lofty ideals all on their lonesome and decide what to do or not do, they would have to accept some kind of authority and do things they'd rather not.

People like Butler are free to claim the Palestinians are being treated unjustly, if they want, or not, if they don't, because there is no need to root anything in either philosophy or science.

mintyfreshh · 23/09/2020 21:14

I'm with Judith. You're in the minority, Mumsnet folks. Soz. Biscuit

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 23/09/2020 21:19

Are we allowed to post biscuits again?

DeaconBoo · 23/09/2020 21:23

@mintyfreshh

I'm with Judith. You're in the minority, Mumsnet folks. Soz. Biscuit
Cool, you're supposed to #bekind to minorities and give them what they want....
Goosefoot · 23/09/2020 21:23

Whatever the truth of this matter of no truth is, I strongly suspect that the majority of people believe there is a reality and it is in part at least knowable.

Gladysthesphinx · 23/09/2020 21:24

I wonder if she talks like that when she’s trying to get her kids to put the rubbish out?

Oxyiz · 23/09/2020 21:29

Nah, I don't think Mumsnet does represent a minority. Look at the comments section on any news articles on the topic. Look at yougov polls. Most of the world knows exactly what a man and woman are. (Scratch that - everyone knows, its just a tiny group who are weirdly determined to say they believe otherwise.)

DeaconBoo · 23/09/2020 21:29

@Gladysthesphinx

I wonder if she talks like that when she’s trying to get her kids to put the rubbish out?
I confess to being perplexed by the fact that the recycling is taken this week, but they do not take the black bin until next week. It won't do to say that some waste should be taken yet other waste should not be taken.
Quaagars · 23/09/2020 21:31

@mintyfreshh
I'm with Judith

Same
Thought it was a good article.

JamieLeeCurtains · 23/09/2020 21:33

Ah, when realities clash ...

Lisz · 23/09/2020 21:44

Hang on, you hit the 'unfollow button' because people are criticising the person you folow? I've worked within social media for 15 years, had many different business accounts etc.. and i swear on my life i've never heard anyone suggest that.

lionheart · 23/09/2020 22:37

Were biscuits cancelled CoffeeTeaChocolate?

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FireUnderTheHand · 23/09/2020 22:43

[quote Quaagars]@mintyfreshh
I'm with Judith

Same
Thought it was a good article.[/quote]
Wow LMAO

I can't stop laughing, tell me this is satire! Please?!?!?

LMAO so much LMAO!!!!

FloralBunting · 23/09/2020 22:58

Wow LMAO

I can't stop laughing, tell me this is satire! Please?!?!?

LMAO so much LMAO!!!!

Me too😂🤣😂 I mean, just...

Stripesgalore · 23/09/2020 23:02

When were biscuits banned?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/09/2020 23:12

When feminists are deploying them wrongly, somehow, I think.

(Talking of which, wtf is an emoticon meaning "no comment" supposed to mean when it's following a comment?Confused)

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2020 23:13

Personally, I've not had a biscuit since March. But sadly I'm not seeing much benefit. [prods belly]

I think we are allowed consolatory biscuits. But not aggressive, sarcastic or rude biscuits.

ArabellaScott · 23/09/2020 23:15

Oh, it means no comment? I did not know that. I'm a bit unobservant literal.

TinselAngel · 23/09/2020 23:17

@mintyfreshh

I'm with Judith. You're in the minority, Mumsnet folks. Soz. Biscuit
No. I'm pretty certain that the majority of the world's population don't agree with Butler.
Stripesgalore · 23/09/2020 23:17

But if we just post a biscuit with no comment, how can the context be judged to know if it is a rude aggressive biscuit?

Stripesgalore · 23/09/2020 23:17
Biscuit
ArabellaScott · 23/09/2020 23:20

I don't know, but I'm bloody hungry. [looks longingly at biscuits]

ErrolTheDragon · 23/09/2020 23:24

They're usually passive aggressive tbh.
(History of the MN biscuit .... 'what's your favourite biscuit' was a standard MN we chat question. But for some reason Gordon Brown wouldn't answer it. This may have been one of the first times MN hit the mainstream media.)

Stripesgalore · 23/09/2020 23:28

I have tried to post another biscuit and it won’t let me. Is it like Candyman? If you post a biscuit on FWR three times...

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