Balanced BBC explainer on women's rights and transgender people

[CheeryTreeBlossom]

Just wanted to signpost this article I spotted on the BBC front page which is possibly the most balanced reporting I have seen on this issue.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53154286

No "assigning of gender/sex" at birth, clear explanation of why women are concerned about single sex spaces and says that it is legal to exclude those even with a GRC if required, e.g.

An example given by the Equality Act is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assault victims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.
However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawful.
Legally changing your gender does not guarantee entry to single-sex spaces, the government says, and the consultation would never have resulted in these exemptions being removed

Dare I believe that there is at last a move towards reasonable discussion in mainstream media?

*balanced reporting from the BBC I meant, obviously

they'll probably be sacked!

Why is refusing a man entry to female toilets likely to be unlawful?

@Aesopfable

Why is refusing a man entry to female toilets likely to be unlawful?

I'd also like to know the answer to that

I think there was a court case on this and the pub lost? A transwoman used the female toilets, a woman complained to the owner and the transwoman barred (which does seem extreme, I wonder if there was more after that?).
They took it to a court and won a discrimination case.

www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

Per the latest guidance if the pub had seen issues with males in the female toilet and/or a woman felt unsafe with the presence of males in those toilets, then surely the landlord is within their rights to designate it a single sex space, using EA2010 exclusions, regardless of GRC?

they'll probably be sacked!
Unusually, there is no byline on the story

There was a first tier case in which a judge found that a pub could not prevent a transwoman from using the ladies. It did not set legal precedent and, so far as I am aware, no judgment was published that would set out what the judge did or did not consider. It was a !ong time a go and understanding of the issues handover on a great deal since then. As far as I know there is no other reason to think that the law would come down on the side of toilets not being allowed to be a single sex space.

Isn't it a shock to see the BBC producing a balanced article about this. Just as amazing as when the Guardian produces one.

Was the discrimination case for the toilet or for the barring from the pub altogether? Although I thought licensees had the right to bar anyone they want to from their own pub?
If the transperson didn’t have a certificate, surely it’s perfectly legal to refuse them entry to the wrong sex toilet, whatever their gender identity? It’s one of the standard exemptions under the Equality Act, no?

It's not clear, but the issue with that case I would read as having been the barring (denial of service - it's a pub, the service is to serve drinks, the toilets are secondary to that surely), rather than the refusal to use the women's toilets.

This case

www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

Sorry, cross posting all over the place

Acording to the account in that linked article, ' She spoke to the landlord of the pub and explained what had happened but he refused to assist. He later barred her from the pub and confirmed that she should not use the ladies toilets and must use the gentleman’s toilets.'

'He [the judge] found that Susan had been discriminated against and had subsequently been victimised by the pub management.'

From that it could be read that he found she had been discriminated against re use of the toilets and that she was then victimised for complaining about it.

I'm pretty sure pub toilets are specifically mentioned in the single sex exceptions clause when it talks about what might count as "a proportionate means to a legitimate aim". It says that something like a rape crisis centre was likely to qualify while something like a pub toilet probably wouldn't. I'll see if I can find the exact passage later but that might be what they're referring too.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Aesopfable
Why is refusing a man entry to female toilets likely to be unlawful?
I'd also like to know the answer to that

Third that.

That’s rubbish. Single sex spaces are supposed to be single sex. Why the BBC cannot grasp such basic facts is beyond me.

It also actually lists "using the facilities of your target gender" as a way in which transpeople might prove they have been "living as a man/woman" for 2 years. Our case for excluding TW from women only services like crisis centers is really strong, but the argument for excluding them from women's toilets is sadly much weaker.

The TW in that case had undergone sex reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman for 20 years. Generally, I don't mind that at all. I wonder what the woman who followed the TW into the loo and told her not to use them was thinking? It sounds a bit suspicious to me, tbh, more like a set up; and under normal circumstances I would not support the woman against the TW.

I wonder what the woman who followed the TW into the loo and told her not to use them was thinking? It sounds a bit suspicious to me, tbh, more like a set up;

Agree - definitely a set up for a woman to go into the women’s toilets. Never happened before.

Can’t imaging what she was thinking... I only go into women’s toilets to chase the men out.

'our sex is recorded as male or female, based on physical characteristics. '

Fuckin hell, I need a wee seat after reading that. On the Beeb! And sex bolded, too!

Brilliant.

Our case for excluding TW from women only services like crisis centers is really strong, but the argument for excluding them from women's toilets is sadly much weaker.

I think it is now clear that someone would have to hold a GRC, so then the question becomes 'how do you police?'

@Jux

The TW in that case had undergone sex reassignment surgery and had been living as a woman for 20 years. Generally, I don't mind that at all. I wonder what the woman who followed the TW into the loo and told her not to use them was thinking? It sounds a bit suspicious to me, tbh, more like a set up; and under normal circumstances I would not support the woman against the TW.

So, despite living as a woman and having surgery, this person didn't pass enough to stop a woman from complaining about there being a man in the ladies?

'how do you police?'

Certain quarters will bang on about genital inspectors. A GRC inspector sounds far less invasive of privacy to me.

If you need the document to go in legally then what's the problem with having to demonstrate you've got it by the simple expedient of showing it?

And if someone treats you badly because they've seen your GRC and know you're trans then they can call the police and let them deal with it in accordance with existing laws - just like they said we can do if we're treated badly by someone in the bogs.

Well a GRC allows you to change your birth certificate, so surely it would be less of a problem to ask to see that, and not risk outing anyone as Trans, while restricting it to women and transwomen with a GRC.

But people aren't going to start carrying those flimsy pages around (by the time you're legal to drink they're already starting to crumble) so realistically they should just make it so that official forms of ID match your legal sex (passport, drivers licence) rather than this creep of self ID. Then whatever ID you're using to get served drinks also determines what bathrooms you use if asked.

Ideally we would also have a third space/option for those uncomfortable with using the bathroom of their legal sex, but unfortunately stonewall et Al don't seem to want to take up the baton of campaigning on that front.

@ArabellaScott

'our sex is recorded as male or female, based on physical characteristics. '

Fuckin hell, I need a wee seat after reading that. On the Beeb! And sex bolded, too!

Brilliant.

Yes this bit caught me off guard and got a "yessss" from me followed by running here to see if anyone else had spotted it. It feels like a sunny day after such a lot of rain to see some actual reporting that is not propaganda on the beeb.