This is why we shouldn't have to share our safe spaces !! Terrifying!

[Mamacherie]

Saw this post on twitter and it is just terrifying how he justifies this type of thinking and behavior as if it is normal. This is why we need our own safe spaces. Imagine letting this guy in ???

Great post Cara.

Those people who bring this up are a bit silly I think.

@quixote9 "So openminded their brains fell out" totally agree. Feels like the world has gone mad.

After reading the OP I am beginning to wonder if a time will when I will feel safer in men’s toilets and changing rooms than in women’s.

Awful. Sometimes I have this horrible thought that I wish my daughters were sons. Not for me but I don’t want them to be vulnerable in the way women are at the moment.

@DaisiesandButtercups

After reading the OP I am beginning to wonder if a time will when I will feel safer in men’s toilets and changing rooms than in women’s.

That thought has occurred to me several times over the last few years.

The type of male who would purposefully over-ride women's consent and breach their boundaries in the knowledge that doing so would make them uncomfortable is precisely the sort of male who should be kept out of women's toilets.

All the decent men will be using the men's toilets.

@DaisiesandButtercups

After reading the OP I am beginning to wonder if a time will when I will feel safer in men’s toilets and changing rooms than in women’s.

In the future I imagine there will be more toilets with a full time attendant/cleaner like they still have in some countries I've visited. You'd feel and probably be safer with such a set up.

Also, there are already women and children that don't like going into public toilets alone for very good reasons, sadly. If things go badly wrong (with this nonsense) there'll be a lot more of that.

I probably wouldn’t be able to afford to use the kind of toilets that had a full time paid attendant, I expect provision would be drastically reduced. Public conveniences would be a whole lot less convenient if they were few and far between and there was a charge to use them.

Would male attendants be allowed in women’s toilets? Would they be DBS checked? How safe would a woman attendant feel in some of the less frequented toilets? Although I suppose the less frequented toilets would be closed permanently.

I am not convinced that this is the way forward for the UK

Datun I'm suggesting the people who decide whether a male with medically diagnosed bodily dysmorphia can have a GRC absolutely must be people who recognise that precise point.

Both the current and the previous system failed women because they were designed and overseen by men who haven't the slightest clue that what to them is entirely nonthreatening and normal behaviour by males can be highly threatening to women.

If we have to have GRCs - and I'd far rather we didn't but we've a long way to go on that one - then women with your level of understanding of the issues need to have the power of veto over who gets one.

Which would make a GRC, in practice, impossible to obtain for at least as long as patriarchy endures.

Failing that, they could at least make the bloody things revokable.

My question was not intended as a gotcha at all. I'm just trying to work out what I even think. I'm quite disconcerted by friends who I thought were as centrist as me telling me I'm a terf and a bigot because I followed Transgender trend and LGB alliance. I'm not so narrow minded as to dig my heels in when challenged on my views, so I've been trying to think how my views might be wrong, or how to think about it a bit differently. I'm not trying to exchange one disadvantage for another, I'm just specifically wondering whether it's wise to set the hares running based on this psycho (or any other psycho) . I saw him on twitter too, and I've no idea how to deal with such an individual. I also don't think it should change the rights of the many totally normal teams women whose tweets I really appreciate and who make it very clear that the TRA stuff is not their bag. Have a look at Laura Riccio. She gave me a lot of perspective about the fact that most of these twitter TRA warriors don't have trans people's best interests at heart. I'm optimistic that will start to get some recognition. Even the Independent ran a piece the other day suggesting that maybe one can simultaneously disagree with JKR (which I definitely don't) and quite enjoy reading her books. They've also, along with many other outlets, moved from labelling her views as transphobic to "controversial", which seems like a start.

So I'm probably going to annoy people with this thought experiment, but if you inserted "black" instead of TRA into this debate, you wouldn't view it as a justifiable argument.

This is such a unique insight @Tootletum and one I've never heard before

FYI;
1, TRAs and trans people are not mutually exclusive.
2, Sex and race are two entirely seperate things however it never fails to impress me how sexism and racism fit hand in glove.

Daisies I did not mean to imply that I thought the things I was predicting happening in the future were a great idea or the way forward.

For clarity: if the calls for self id get made into law it will, in my opinion, be awful for women and children and I hope it doesn't happen. If it did happen then I think women and children (and providers of toilet facilities and change rooms) will have to try the best they can to make those places as safe as possible. It was jokingly suggested by a poster that soon the men's loo will seem like a safer bet and that really made me think about what other (more serious) strategies could be employed.

It's not a future that I hope I'll ever have to see.

@Tootletum

My question was not intended as a gotcha at all. I'm just trying to work out what I even think. I'm quite disconcerted by friends who I thought were as centrist as me telling me I'm a terf and a bigot because I followed Transgender trend and LGB alliance. I'm not so narrow minded as to dig my heels in when challenged on my views, so I've been trying to think how my views might be wrong, or how to think about it a bit differently. I'm not trying to exchange one disadvantage for another, I'm just specifically wondering whether it's wise to set the hares running based on this psycho (or any other psycho) . I saw him on twitter too, and I've no idea how to deal with such an individual. I also don't think it should change the rights of the many totally normal teams women whose tweets I really appreciate and who make it very clear that the TRA stuff is not their bag. Have a look at Laura Riccio. She gave me a lot of perspective about the fact that most of these twitter TRA warriors don't have trans people's best interests at heart. I'm optimistic that will start to get some recognition. Even the Independent ran a piece the other day suggesting that maybe one can simultaneously disagree with JKR (which I definitely don't) and quite enjoy reading her books. They've also, along with many other outlets, moved from labelling her views as transphobic to "controversial", which seems like a start.

I appreciate that you are only trying to see both sides, however black people have been used as some sort of point scoring in the Trans debate, by Trans Activists. Believe me as a black person, I find this highly offensive.

In particular black women are being used as some sort of gotcha. “If black women can be women why can’t TW be women? “

Right OK well I've obviously missed the point then, I'll just leave and forget about it all.

Yeah maybe google misogynoir while you're at it

Safeguarding and sex segregation isn't a personal attack. Nor should it be used as some kind of validation tool of you as a person , "look at me the rules dont apply im one of the nice ones"

Anyone who think safeguarding is an attack on their freedoms are probably the very people it should be applying to.

No need to do that. You asked a question and it was answered. I was just pointing out how I feel when my race is brought into this discussion, particularly by TRAs, not people like you. Race and Gender ideology are not the same thing. One is a real and material fact and one is based on belief or validation.

Bloody hell that is terrifying! To be fair though if I was a transgender woman I would not be too impressed with what it had written either!
Absolutely disgusting. How is this person not locked up in some secure unit?

I'm just specifically wondering whether it's wise to set the hares running based on this psycho (or any other psycho)

At least two of the key principles of safeguarding - prevention and protection require risk assessments that take into account potential dangers. 'Or any other psycho' for want of a better expression would be precisely the sort of people you would need to take into account when opening up safe spaces to all comers.

And by all comers I mean those people who do not have gender dysphoria, but who might take advantage of any relaxation in the rules for their own ends.

Where’s Hannibal when you need him?

That is a very dangerous individual with a fetish.

Women used to be able to warn each other of people like him.

If we have to have GRCs - and I'd far rather we didn't but we've a long way to go on that one - then women with your level of understanding of the issues need to have the power of veto over who gets one.

Well that would be lovely! 😁

And if I had that power, I would exclude all men. On the basis that very many women do not want to be in a vulnerable space with a man, however lovely he is.

Many women have already suffered at the hands of men and whether one is nice or not really shouldn't be something they have to give any headroom to, when they're taking their clothes off or have their knickers round their ankles, are in a hospital ward, or a prison.

To me, men aren't the focus here. What they want, don't want, any of it. It's the women who are the focus of their own spaces.

Plus, there is no real diagnosis for identifying as a woman. Other than what the person says. So on a purely practical level, I don't think you can effectively filter people out anyway.

It's a piece of piss to kid a psychiatrist, as was evidenced online, by the very many people who said they had.

Yup.

That isn’t even what happened in Silence of the Lambs so he can’t have been that obsessed with it.

The whole thing is probably a hoax.

There can never be a diagnosis for identifying as a woman - it's a self-reported subjective mental state, so in the absence of veritaserum we're buggered on that one.

That doesn't mean we can't at least attempt to differentiate between males who seek to modify their bodies to alleviate psychological distress, and males who seek to violate the integrity of category woman for kicks. Neither should be in women's spaces, I agree, but the former have a medical condition that warrants accommodations (such as third spaces) whereas the latter group deserves branding with a whacking great D for Dickhead in the middle of the forehead so all women know who to avoid.

The GRC could theoretically be used to distinguish between these two subsets of males, if it's only possible to get one with intractable bodily dysmorphia, as used to be the case. Wouldn't be a perfect guarantee but would mean GRC holders as a class would present a statistically lower chance of sexually preying on women because this subset has historically been almost exclusively male-attracted.

At things currently stand, the ones with a medical diagnosis of a psychological disorder don't have any way of distancing themselves from the dickheads who are only in it to trample women's boundaries.

That said, no one gets a certificate of diagnosis to prove their legitimacy for any other medical condition (which as an aside makes life a lot harder for many people, myself included) - why are we singling out trans people / people with dysphoria for this special accommodation? I would pay a lot more than a hundred and forty quid to be able to get a certificate I could present to the assessor next time I'm hauled for an assessment instead of going through the demeaning rigmarole again.

Sorry, I may be rambling. Tl;dr you can filter by motivation, and there's merit in this even if no motivation is sufficient to access women's spaces.