Permission to think Differently

[BovaryX]

Why should a small demented group of people who believe that the big bearded man with a penis is a woman if he says he is... that they should dictate the cultural weather across the country and make major authors have to fear for their careers and make all politicians become gibbering wrecks when the subject comes up. Why should that be the case?

One of the features of the ongoing culture war is the imposition of absurd, niche beliefs which have zero popular support but are enforced via the agents of the state. The police. The civil service. Primary, Secondary, Tertiary education. Politicians. This is a 21st century phenomenon and it is an existential threat to freedom of speech, critical thinking and Enlightenment values. Douglas Murray is scathing about the JKR attacks, but the bigger question is how does a tiny cadre of activists wield such influence? That you have to be a muti million selling author to confront them. It's incredible.

I meant to say as well, I completely disagree on the "indigenous white people". Its unhelpful and inaccurate. Look up the term indigenous, it doesn't apply to white British.

@IfNotNow12

The white working class is not one big homogeneous blob. Generally, working people of all hues want the same things. Safe communities, good schools and jobs.

Yes, I was talking generally. Maybe I should have said poor?

Ahh I see what you mean about indigenous, the earliest known inhabitants. I looked it up as suggested. So due to waves of conquest, Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc we can really only say that we are indigenous Europeans? Maybe Northern Europeans? Or not indigenous at all.

Just trying to get my head around this concept!

I would find it very interesting indeed if white people are now not allowed to be described as indigenous to anywhere... I think the word is perfectly fitting.

I agree about the identity politics being divisive. I think it's a matter of level though. The blending is multinational, the highlighting of difference operates locally. Divide and conquer. If you get the people of a nation squabbling amongst themselves, the nation is both weaker and paying less attention to the bigger picture.

I also note that the identity of some groups is allowed to be placed foreground, while others are to be ashamed of theirs or, if they try to assert it, are ignored or maligned. This certainly applies to TRAs and natal women, and helps the former to colonise the spaces of the latter.

indigenous British culture
What is British culture? Stting on the sofa on Saturday nights watching Strictly Come Dancing? Sitting on the village green watching Morris dancing? Speaking Gaelic? Cornish? Welsh? Gaeilge? Playing hurley? Playing rugby? Curling? Football? Eating haggis? Eating jellied eels? Singing Calon Lân? Singing Rule Britannia? Singing Flower of Scotland?

Need I go on? You're never going to define "British culture" because there isn't one!

Speaking as a child immigrant, British culture is a combination of insularity and acceptance.

Of course is such a thing as British culture. It is multifaceted but it's there.

Would you say there is no such thing as French or Italian or Canadian culture?

Democratic values, tolerance and a healthy disrespect and distrust of authority and uniformity have long been part of British culture.

Cross post with Jellyslice but I agree with her.

Insularity is not unique to Brits, of course.

^I think the absurdity is a feature, not a bug, as the saying goes.
^^
^It's so removed from reality that it's hardly credible, and thus hard to dissect. Harder to kill a phantom...

Completely agree.

The biggest difference between Britain and USA is the pride people have of being Americans or becoming Americans. People just don't seem to have that same optimistic belief in their country and those that do seem to be seem a bit xenophobic (portrayed as).

Of course, things are changing in the US too.

I think there has always been a class divide in Britain, which has weakened cultural confidence.

That has traditionally been less the case in America. There was greater social equality, and equality of opportunity there, for the past two centuries. That led to social and cultural cohesion and optimism. Now it has declined, with a big divide between the rural or small-town working class (who value their communities) and the college-educated elites living on the coast and in big cities (who are the tech experts and internationalists). Social mobility has decreased.
Identity politics, driven by the intelligentsia, drives ever deeper divisions and fractures into society.

Indigenous?

We've been invaded and mixed up time and time and time again!!!

Romans, Vikings, Normans, Anglo-Saxon...

What a strange comment. Can you expand on it?!

I think the poster who used the word indigenous looked it up and retracted it.

Yeah if course there is British culture it was the word indigenous that made me

You're never going to define "British culture" because there isn't one!

Everyone has one but the British? I know culture is a woolly concept but either it applies to all or it applies to none.

If indigenous is only defined as never having migrated from somewhere, then only people living in the Rift Valley qualify! I think some people wrongly associate the word indigenous with oppressed populations in other countries which is why it's being policed here. If the indigenous population of the British Isles isn't white please tell me what colour is. And why it is so upsetting to say this?? It feels like TRAs saying it's offensive to point out that they don't have female biology. Are white people not allowed to be rooted anywhere, only invaders? British people don't have a culture? Whose narrative is this? This is the very phenomenon under discussion in action. Very meta.

Huh?

To say we're indigenous to the British isles is nonsense. Maybe some people in Cornwall could be, my husband suggested.

Northern European maybe.

I don't get it at all. One of the main things about us is how mixed up with others we are due to invasion after invasion.

Why does this upset you so much?

'Definition of indigenous
1: produced, growing, living, or occurring natively or naturally in a particular region or environment
indigenous plants
the indigenous culture'

Nope sorry doesn't fit :/

If you haven't read Douglas Murray's the Madness of Crowds, it's a must-read, it really is.

British but have lived abroad most of my life. Family lives in London. There is such a thing as British culture but I struggle to explain what it is except that I’ve encountered it from Monmouth to Inverness and London.
People are more friendly in the UK, there is a sense of community, people rally around a cause (Captain Tom would never have taken off where I live).
But also pubs, curry, fish and chips, tea - which may sound silly to you but I miss it so much.
When I walk in the park in the UK, people say hello when they walk past you. Where I live, they look horrified if you even so much as smile at them. I always remember struggling with the door at a Costa (with three coffees and sweets) and how surprised I was that several people rushed to help.
It’s waiting in line.
Gardening.

The list goes on.

@Guineapigbridge

If you haven't read Douglas Murray's the Madness of Crowds, it's a must-read, it really is.

As is "The Strange Death Of Europe". He comments on "culture", I think Sweden's and an assertion one of their ministers made regarding Sweden have no or very little culture, when discussing immigration policy. Reminded me of what's been said on this thread and I'm surprised that anyone would believe Britain has no "culture". You might not like the one it has but it unarguably has one.

Roast dinners
The class system
Thatcher cottages
Football
Cricket
Villages and Parishes
Houses of Parliament
Notting Hill Carnival
Fish and chips
Stately homes
Hugely rich painting and art history
Rugby
Bagpipes
Welsh Dragons and Castles
The Royal Family
Summer fetes
Cream teas
Seaside holidays

And those are just the ones I can think of in the two minutes before I go on the school run.

I can’t find much to disagree with in what Antibles says but I do feel somewhat out of my depth on this topic. I think that the Celtic cultures in the British Isles have done well continuing to promote and value their languages, music and stories and adding to a sense of place and rootedness.

In England there are differences in the different regions, maybe breaking it down to the ancient kingdoms would work well, Murcia, Wessex etc

I wonder about regional assemblies and if they would promote greater democracy and participation whilst also allowing for celebration and promotion of local history and culture.

Mainly I think that the areas where a majority of the population are transient and/or all of similar age or class tend to lack the benefits which can be found in areas where the majority are long term or life long residents and more invested in the area. A variety of age and social class helps too I think, as people are more able to help and support one another and share different perspectives, skills and energy levels being in different life stages.

I think humans need healthy tribes in order to thrive. We are social animals and we have growing evidence that loneliness is fatal for us. Where there is a vacuum in community strange things can happen especially in conjunction with modern technology. I think that it would be great if we could acknowledge the importance of community and plan more for it. That would also mean tackling the dominance of cars in cities and designing more spaces for people to walk, cycle, sit, play, chat close to where they live, like really close ideally right outside their houses and flats.
Economic policies over the years have pushed people to move far from the areas in which they grew up and far from the support of family and friends. This should be looked at too.

So many interesting thoughts here! I think the internet has given people an easy alternative to forging real-life connections where they are, and if people are always moving around, don't have much time outside of work, or are just socially awkward/inept, it may be the only way of finding some kind of 'community'. But unlike local communities, you can keep searching online until you find people who think exactly like you, rather than building more traditional relationships which involve accepting some differences of opinion or reflecting on your own views. Once an online tribe is found, I think the validation and lack of self-reflection that follows makes people even more convinced of themselves, their rights or special 'victim' status, and what might be quite fringe views, separating them even further from the real, physical community.

Considering the number of TRAs who haven't even read JK Rowlings' essay or new book, and how they go on the attack regardless. Can you imagine that they would do the hard work of trying to understand the position of women local to them who (for example) have concerns about same-sex toilet provisions being removed in local schools or libraries? I don't think they do. They have wrapped themselves in the cotton wool of their online community, and cannot bear any challenge. A lot of it is also hugely self-centered - whereas in 'real' communities you eventually get told to 'get over it' if you don't want to totally bore and alienate people, online communities are often mutual pity parties which just validate people's grievances and reward their navel-gazing (TRAs) or hatred (MRAs) and never help them just move on from whatever they are feeling.

But unlike local communities, you can keep searching online until you find people who think exactly like you, rather than building more traditional relationships which involve accepting some differences of opinion or reflecting on your own views.

A very good point.

There is also so much emphasis put on acceptance, that people often have no concept of compromise or cooperation - everyone must accept them.