Independent thought by women must be punished

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

Margaret Court, one of the most successful woman tennis players of all time, may have her name removed from a stadium, because of her views on same sex marriage and trans athletes link. And Andy Murray is all for it

I agree with Court on trans athletes; I totally disagree with her on same sex marriage, but she is entitled to hold her views and to express them. She isn't, I think, a particularly pleasant person but - guess what? Most elite athletes are arseholes, because they only succeed though ruthless focus on their own goals, and everyone else is pushed aside. But it's only women who are punished for this - or for wrong think.

All over the world, sporting venues are named after men, many of whom have done far worse than hold views that are now unpopular. How many venues will be named after Kobe Bryant, self-confessed rapist, for example? Most male sports have a huge homophobia problem. What are we doing about that? Very little.

But one thing named after a woman? That cannot stand. And an uppity woman who is no longer young and pretty? Even worse. She must be punished

I was going to post a thread on this.

Seriously. What is the world coming to when women (and it always seems to be women) should be 'cancelled' (erased) for holding opinions?

Yes, I agree, cancel culture will cancel us all in the end - we are just at the sharp end, being women of a certain age.

Cancel culture will cancel us all - absolutely.

George Orwell knew this.

Don't think it's really a 'woman' thing though. I suspect it's what she's talked about that has caused the issue and a man expressing similar views would also be in trouble with those who monitor what's pc to say. I suspect the 'man' thing with it is most men wouldn't say anything. People who express un-pc views on trans or gay matters are in trouble irrespective of their sex (or is that gender)

Margaret Court is a great example of nominative determinism.

@BigFatLiar

Don't think it's really a 'woman' thing though. I suspect it's what she's talked about that has caused the issue and a man expressing similar views would also be in trouble with those who monitor what's pc to say. I suspect the 'man' thing with it is most men wouldn't say anything. People who express un-pc views on trans or gay matters are in trouble irrespective of their sex (or is that gender)

I don't agree. Where is there an example of a man getting the same level of grief as a woman for these sorts of views? Twitter might object to a man saying similar, but there would be nothing like the level of hatred that women get.

Men do get cancelled, but only for much greater 'sins' than this. Different industry, I know, but Roman Polanski still has many defenders, and is feted by much of the film industry, despite having raped and sodomised a minor, for example.

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

I completely agree.

Think this is one of the reasons why the media have been desperate for Serena Williams to win one more Grand Slam and thus draw level with Court.

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

100% agree. May I steal this quote for use elsewhere MissLucy?

You only need to look at Twitter to see men can say whatever they like. Especially if it's anti women.

Well a FTM is going to be no threat to male tennis, MTF players will affcet womens tennis. I thought Murray was a friend and advocate to women but seens the trans agenda trumps that.

Most elite athletes are arseholes, because they only succeed though ruthless focus on their own goals, and everyone else is pushed aside. But it's only women who are punished for this - or for wrong think

Yeah. Look at Djokovic (sp?) - his anger issues put a lineswoman at risk of serious injury and he set up an international tennis players' group which specifically excluded women.

But is he cancelled or punished in this way?

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

Nailed it

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

I think it’s a bit of a reach to describe homophobia and some of the related comments this woman has made as “independent thought”. How vile are women allowed to be before we stop defending them just because men get away with worse? That’s a genuine question.

I don't give a fuck what someone's opinions are unless we are celebrating them specifically for their opinions. We can celebrate sporting prowess and achievement in its own right. If we are giving a prize for 'best all-round human' then maybe we'd take a view. But if we are celebrating someone's achievements in a specific field, then their weaknesses elsewhere don't need to be considered.

I think that means we have to accept that we will celebrate individuals for their greatness in one sphere even while acknowledging their failings in other spheres. Having opinions that a lot of people disagree with or even find offensive isn't a reason to cancel someone.

@Greencoatblue

The bar of what women have to do to get cancelled is set at ankle level. For men, it's about 7 feet high.

100% agree. May I steal this quote for use elsewhere MissLucy?

Be my guest

I'm not a fan of cancel culture but I think the OP is being disingenuous here so I wanted to point out a few other things:

1. The campaign to rename the stadium is also supported by Maria Navratilova, who has herself questioned and opposed trans athletes in women's sport.
2. Court's views also included support for apartheid in South Africa.
3. She doesn't just oppose gay marriage- she once said it was a shame Navratilova was so good at tennis because it exposed children to homosexuality.
4. She isn't just a retired tennis player being cancelled for expressing her own private opinions in a public forum, but someone with a weekly Christian TV show and president of her own network of Churches, who regularly makes public pronouncements on moral issues (whilst also bemoaning that she is being silenced).

Whether any of the above means the stadium should be renamed is up for debate, but I think it's good to have the whole picture.

@Marisishidinginmyattic

I think it’s a bit of a reach to describe homophobia and some of the related comments this woman has made as “independent thought”. How vile are women allowed to be before we stop defending them just because men get away with worse? That’s a genuine question.

According to the article, Court is going to have her name erased for opposing same sex marriage and trans athletes (meaning TW playing against women, presumably).

Is it 'vile' to oppose same sex marriage? If it is, then many Christians, including pretty much the whole African Church, Muslims, and probably adherents of other religions too are 'vile'.

Personally, I'm an atheist, so think the whole concept of a magical sky pixie telling you who you're allowed to shag is baloney, and I campaigned in support of gay marriage. But I don't think it is 'vile' to disagree.

In any case, the point here is not so much whether Court's views are objectionable, but whether a male champion with the same views would be having his name erased. If anyone can find a comparable example happening to a man, I'd be interested to see it.

Oh FFS...

There was a link in the article to another where Martina was mentioned as also stating she felt the name should be changed. So it may be that the trans element has been added in after the campaign began. Andy Murray may not be aware that he is now advocating for men in women’s tennis.

@Pingu21

I'm not a fan of cancel culture but I think the OP is being disingenuous here so I wanted to point out a few other things:

1. The campaign to rename the stadium is also supported by Maria Navratilova, who has herself questioned and opposed trans athletes in women's sport.
2. Court's views also included support for apartheid in South Africa.
3. She doesn't just oppose gay marriage- she once said it was a shame Navratilova was so good at tennis because it exposed children to homosexuality.
4. She isn't just a retired tennis player being cancelled for expressing her own private opinions in a public forum, but someone with a weekly Christian TV show and president of her own network of Churches, who regularly makes public pronouncements on moral issues (whilst also bemoaning that she is being silenced).

Whether any of the above means the stadium should be renamed is up for debate, but I think it's good to have the whole picture.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on everything Court has said, so I'm not sure in what sense I am being disingenuous? As I said in the OP, I disagree with her views and don't think she is a nice person. But the point is the difference between how men and women are treated.

Court has some obnoxious views arising from her faith (and shared by billions of people worldwide, much as I might disagree with them). Kobe Bryant raped a vulnerable young woman. One is erased, the other fêted.

Djokovic hit a woman line judge (accidentally, in my view, but as a result of reckless rule-breaking). Who gets the abuse on SM? The woman.

Women athletes get constant trolling and abuse

If we get into the 'But Court says bad things", we're missing the point. Once they get her erased, they'll be coming for Martina next, for her wrong think on TW athletes. This won't end until every woman in public life has to toe the line. Free speech matters, even if we disagree with what is said.

Yes, it is vile to appose same sex marriage and it's vile to make the kinds of homophobic comments she makes. Religion is no excuse for that. Trotting out the other religious people who have the same beliefs doesn't make those beliefs any more okay.

And do we have any male champions with their names on somewhere who've consistently said such disgusting things? I don't have a wide knowledge of tennis players and their records for being homophobic. But we need an equally famous male player making similar comments to exist before we can compare whether people have discussed removing his name or not.

@Marisishidinginmyattic

Yes, it is vile to appose same sex marriage and it's vile to make the kinds of homophobic comments she makes. Religion is no excuse for that. Trotting out the other religious people who have the same beliefs doesn't make those beliefs any more okay.

And do we have any male champions with their names on somewhere who've consistently said such disgusting things? I don't have a wide knowledge of tennis players and their records for being homophobic. But we need an equally famous male player making similar comments to exist before we can compare whether people have discussed removing his name or not.

So in that case, presumably you would support Martina's achievements being erased? And JKR's? Many people believe their views are just as vile as Court's.

@SapatSea

Well a FTM is going to be no threat to male tennis, MTF players will affcet womens tennis. I thought Murray was a friend and advocate to women but seens the trans agenda trumps that.

Is it about the trans agenda though? Pretty sure Court is more notorious for her homophobic and racist views. I don't think Murray speaking out against a specific racist/homophobic woman necessarily makes him any less a friend to women in general. Just my opinion.