Who told trans women they should use women’s spaces?

[FWRLurker]

So I was listening to a podcast recently featuring the transition story of a late transitioning trans woman and had a bit of a “huh.” Moment.

The trans woman in question by all measures appears to be the sort who really should transition. Has gender dysphoria But no other co-morbitidies, went through gatekeeping etc. so a success story.

When talking to her male surgeon she said “I think I am a woman, what should I do?” to describe her situation, and the surgeon told her “well I’d start by shaving the beard!” Eventually the trans woman transitioned and probably passes as a woman and so forth.

what got To me was the fact that during the process of transitioning, she only ever talked to different male psychologists and surgeons (The story was really about the trans woman and her surgeon and differences in decision making). These male surgeons and psychologists decided that she wasn’t really male so should live as a woman. They advised her to change her appearance and to use women’s spaces. They seem to have done this out of Wanting to help their patients. It seems to have literally never occurred to them (or to the male podcast host I may add) that they are giving something away that does not belong to them.

I really feel the core problem here Was the misogyny of these doctors and patients. They simply did not stop to consider women or their consent during this process. I am angry at myself for not realizing this sooner because like everyone else I want to think the best of people. But failing to notice your own misogyny, (Or racism, or class privilege for that matter) is not an acceptable excuse for racist/misogynist/classist actions.

Unless forced to, Men don’t even notice women enough to care what they think.

Yy they should have stayed in their own lane and started educating other men about being accepting of GNC men.

They advised her to change her appearance and to use women’s spaces. They seem to have done this out of Wanting to help their patients. It seems to have literally never occurred to them (or to the male podcast host I may add) that they are giving something away that does not belong to them.

Well I don't think anyone here is surprised to hear about that!

Totally agree. Men are very quick to give away what isn't theirs, while doing nothing to address male attitudes to anyone who doesn't conform to the stereotypical definition of male.
Male violence in society is the problem - it's why women need our own spaces on the first place.

It’s what PP have mentioned, spaces occupied only by women are seen as “terra nullius“ literally “no ones land” - Empty & therefore available to be given away to any man who wants it

Glad for the TW that they were able to get support and transition to what makes them 'feel right'. In the interest of being clear, my below comments are in relation to the doctors/authorities in this situation and not the patient.

This isn't remotely shocking, disappointing for sure but isn't it the MO of men to give away women's things?

I mean it doesn't affect them or their egos to give away what is not theirs so they are terribly generous with giving away our things while holding on to the most meager of their own possessions.

The whole thing is disturbing - females are reduced to body parts while males take over our language, our spaces, our human right to dignity and privacy in vulnerable situations, and attempt to control our bodies.

Like a collection of male medic types deciding that men with certain symptoms or behaviours were not male, so therefore female?

Female seems to mean a lack of maleness, unless needed for reproduction purposes

In answer to the question

At work, as soon as our transwoman began wearing a dress, there was uproar from the men that she was still using the gents..because she was in a dress

The women then objected to her using the ladies...because of the penis

A unisex space was created

As Kit says, a terra nullis. Not important, nothing really matters (to men) going on there, and the luxury of male socialisation is not only not having to worry about female issues but not even to be aware things exist that don't impact on men. Quoting freely from that philosopher thread discussion because it blew me away in nailing what I'd felt my way around for years: Women are heavily socialised in male issues and perspectives and life from the male pov through heavy male dominance of culture, law, arts, tv, films, even women there are ones seen through male eyes for the dominant amount of time. Men can call female centred stuff 'chick flicks' and head in the other direction in disdain. Primary school teachers have told me, class books have to be centred on boy heroes because their boy pupils will switch off if a book is centred on girls or anything they perceive as girly as not relevant or of interest to them; however the girls will engage in anything.

So female spaces to many males are just spaces not really being usefully used, there are no indigenous inhabitants there in the same way the pilgrims stepped past Native Americans and said they were claiming this unused virgin soil where no one (who existed in the sense of mattering in the minds of the pilgrims) had ever lived.. and it's a good use to put it to for males who need somewhere else to be.

Note too in connection with this, how often (three times on MN this week alone so far) someone in defence of self ID has said or shared a quote saying "there have been no issues" or "this affects no one" where what they obviously mean but don't realise is "there have been no issues for male people " and "This doesn't affect male people". They're talking to people raising issues, explaining the effect, sharing data and incidents that prove those issues have been there from the start and are very serious for some females - but in the terra nullis, apparently no one can hear you scream.

I agree OP. In fact the "living as a woman" part of the GRA pretty much implies they have to use female spaces.

Yes. The expectations of transgender individuals and the trans political movement about what spaces trans people should use and how they should expect others to perceive and treat them have to a certain extent been created and perpetuated by the medical profession (which has always been extremely reactionary).

At some point in the earliest days of treatment for sex dysphoria, doctors made a totally unexamined decision that telling transitioning people to use the spaces of the opposite sex was the right thing to do, without any consideration of the ethics of this from the pov of impacts on wider society. And that has continued and now been adopted into law to some extent. It's hard to think of decisions in any branch of medicine that have had such far reaching impact for people who are not the patient.

If you are minded to be charitable then possibly the assumption was that as the numbers of transitioning patients were small, there would be negligible impact on society. But even if that was considered (and we have no reason to think that it was) that decision wasn't the medical profession's to make.

Would also add that women have never been consulted about this, and impact assessments are either missing in a dog ate my homework way that FoI leave serious questions about whether they were even carried out as claimed, or under guidance from those with a political interest are led to believe that it is necessary only to impact assess the gender identity group and not to consider any other groups in society. Some, like the Scots govt, do the assessment but just put in the space 'no impact' again in the 'no impact to males' way, without explanation, justification or again any attempt at actual consultation or engagement with females about the issues impacting them.

Blatant, blatant sexism.

OP I completely agree-I would suspect that it is predominantly (if not 100%) male Drs who treat men with gender dysphoria. They are giving them advice which clearly is to the detriment of women. Yet no one seems to care.

Perhaps the treatment for gender dysphoria needs to change? If a Dr said yes of course have your hair long, wear feminine clothing & carry a handbag BUT still recognise that you haven't changed sex, then less men would wish to transition.

They advised her to change her appearance and to use women’s spaces. They seem to have done this out of Wanting to help their patients. It seems to have literally never occurred to them (or to the male podcast host I may add) that they are giving something away that does not belong to them.

Would it be wonderful if women could just say don't be silly, go away and stop being irritating.

That's a world without sexism or misogyny.

At work, as soon as our transwoman began wearing a dress, there was uproar from the men that she was still using the gents..because she was in a dress

Wow! The men really do need to expand their minds!!! How on earth does the dress matter?

Would it be wonderful if women could just say don't be silly, go away and stop being irritating.

Yes it would. Ideally it would be clearly signposted outside every female space.

there was uproar from the men that she was still using the gents..because she was in a dress

Well yes, how would they know whether to make a pass if dresses didn’t mean ‘available’

A dress wandering into the Gent's is far less of a threat than a penis wandering into the Ladies'!